'cos i don't have enough, y'know? although i might consider trading one of them in...
when i was last at the "toy" store (;p) i got into a discussion with the salesman about what i like and don't like about my two main cameras (canon 60D and sony nex7), and he said i should ditch both in favour of a system that will do everything i want... he recommended either the fuji XT1 or X-Pro2 or the Olympus OMD EM1... and of course the fuji XT2 is about to be released and so far i've read really good things about it...
i don't think i could see my way to ditching the canon line (i have a good number of lenses and love so much about the camera for artistic work), but i would like a bit more flexibility for a walk around camera...
however, i am not in love with the sony... it does produce high quality images, and it is generally an excellent camera for travelling with, but the controls are annoyingly fiddly and there doesn't seem to be a huge number of options for lenses... plus i find it pretty much useless for arty shots, manual focussing, macro, etc...
both the XTs and the EM1 are heavier than the nex7, which is definitely a mark against switching, but if there are more lens options that might sway me... also, although the XT-1 is heavier than my sony, it is lighter than the XT-2 and will likely come down in price making it possibly a decent option... and i might even think that some folks will trade in the XT-1 meaning possibly some decent second hand options... (uh oh... i might be talking myself into this)
any thoughts or suggestions? or horrible warnings?
Rumors are the EM1 MK II will be announced at Photokina in Sept. That explains why BH Photo recently dropped the price $200 on the body. Based on the substantial improvements in the 2 previous MK II versions (EM5, EM10), m43 fans expect at least the same magnitude of difference in the EM1 MK II.
New camera .....again?-lol!:)
Got recently the Xt-1 & 'im so loving it-:) but if you could wait,Xt-2 will be out soon..I'm not really good in giving reviews so attached here's a link ' bout the toy.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8bddQ9u8WzY
--my only problem the lens are lil'pricey....but the size, the look, feel & images, i think its a fabulous camera:)
@joemuli well - one can never have too many cameras, right? ;p
actually, i'm really toying with the idea of getting an XT-1 second hand... it's quite a bit lighter than the XT-2, and it would give me a chance to get to know the line before deciding if i want top of the line... plus it will presumably be better than the sony nex7 which is going on for 3 or 4 years old now (i mean - that's positively ancient, right????)
@fotoblah - oh dear... MORE choices to ponder... but very helpful... tx!
Recently I bought a new DSLR. I was shooting with a Nikon D200 that I still love and went for the Nikon D7200. There are a lot of things I don't like about the hew camera, but what really amazed me was the progress in sensor technology. Now I can shoot up to ISO3200 without getting too much noise. That used to be about ISO200. So I think that from now on, I'll upgrade sooner, probably in 3, 4 years again.
Here's what DPReview said about it in 2014. Lots of words, summary in "conclusion" says it all though. If one of the things you don't like about the NEX is the small controls, check out the rear buttons. Are they big enough for you? http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-t1
Here's also what DPR said about the XT-2 in comparison. It does seem significantly improved, but comes in at twice what you can get the XT-1 for. But again, lenses will be the most costly part of the kit, I would say. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-t2-first-impressions-review
Between the Fuji and the Olympus models you mention, DPR thinks well of both. APS-C rather than Micro-four-thirds would swing me to the Fuji. But I have not shot with either, except in the store, so I have no first hand experience.
Did you check out the Sony a6000, and the newer a6300? Yes, a good selection of APS-C E-mount lenses is still a concern for these Sonys, but I think the rest of your complaints, especially about "creative support," are addressed, and then some. Yes, that darn menu system is still a nightmare for new users, but you have plenty of controls to customize, so once set, I don't find it an issue. After all, I think you have found your way through the RX100 maze. If I were upgrading my APS-C camera, but I'm not, I believe it would be to the Sony a6300. Yes folks, and NOT to the Nikon D500.
@hjv While I am a huge fan of Nikon DSLRs, I would believe the future is with the mirror-less models. Keep a lookout in 24 to 36 months. I think Nikon will be in the mainstream then, even. No, I don't count the Nikon 1 line...
@quietpurplehaze That's my choice but I am not a camera fanatic. I just like the reliable factor. Good in all kinds of light, great detail, lightweight.
There's another choice that you haven't mentioned... the Fuji XT10. Same innards as the XT1 but smaller, lighter and cheaper - I like mine a lot and I. say this as a NEX 6 & NEX 7 owner
I'm reading all of this and dreaming ... still stuck with an 8 year old Nikon D80 - got to love the reliability of it but would love to upgrade. Will re-open this discussion when I actually get to purchase another one! LOL!
@vignouse hmmm... that one's more comparable to my sony rx100Miv, no? i don't think i'm going to trade that one in just yet - although it looks like the X-10 has more reach on it as well as ability to shoot macro... hmmmm....
@quietpurplehaze@allie912 oh yes - sony makes a darned good camera... but there are aspects that frustrate me and i think i will need to address them sooner or later...
@frankhymus tx for all the research... especially the DP review of the XT-1... lots to think about!
@northy No, the XT10 is a a smaller version of the XT1 with exactly the same sensor and processor so it performs identically and also takes the same range of lenses. Check it out...
@vignouse ooooh! Yes - I see now... I may have to go out and check these out in person... Smaller is definitely good... But the weather sealing aspects are a huge consideration for me as well... Hmmmmm..... Tx!
You already have great digital cameras - give film a try - get a cheap (but good) medium format camera. Seriously much more "fun" than any digital. You could get a seriously good camera, a scanner and all the equipment for the same price. Loads of fun and you will not worry about size when you pick up your present cameras. I went in another direction and ditched flexibility. Prime lenses all the way. Probably why I am crap.
@northy I can only say one thing again. Check the lenses you want. Fujifilm have an excellent APS-C X-mount range, but they are not inexpensive for the best. http://fujifilm-x.com/en/lenses/
Prices are not here on the fuji site I think, so you'll have to look at, e.g. amazon.com.
@northy I'm 100% with @spanner with regard to film (you could even purchase an excellent second hand large format field camera with a couple of lenses for the price of almost any digital mirrorless) but if you are looking for a small and practical thing, this could not be an option... If you are not afraid of rangefinder (and there is no reason to be) did you consider a secondhand Leica M9? Its sensor and processor give some real satisfactions. Not to talk about the lenses (all absolutely to be found on the second hand market, otherwise for millionaires ;-))
so today i went to a camera store (bad bad bad bad bad bad news... there's one at the other end of the block from my office - huge risk for impulse buying ;p) and got to handle the fuji XT-1 and XT-10... have to say that i'm not sure i'm in love with the dials... they didn't have the EM-1 so i don't know how it compares in the hand... on paper it's heavier...
the thought of having a reasonably weather resistant camera is extremely appealing... but of course there's not much use in a camera that is too heavy and uncomfortable to carry around... (i've already got my canon for that ;p)...
film is an interesting thought... i do have a film camera, but back when i was in college i did my own developing... somehow, though, i have not been able to make myself fall back in love with it :(
anyway - thank you for all your input and giving me so much to think about... really not sure what i'm going to do now other than continue to think on it...
or.... i could just trade the sony nex 7 in for the new sony alpha 6300 which is weather resistant... the devil i know... and i already have a decent lens... but...
@northy `You could use your Canon lenses with the a6300 too. A cheap adapter will do ,as long as you don't mind doing manual focus. Of course the native Sony lenses will give you nice fast AF on the 6300. The 6300 may even do AF with the more expensive Metabones adapter but I'm not sure, you'd have to investigate that before committing.
On the other hand, in your previous posts you sound rather disinterested in Sony, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here. There are so many excellent cameras to choose from, no point going into one you don't love using.
@northy You either fall in love with the retro shooting feel of all those fujifilm dials, or you find them strange and awkward. Observation from a number of reviewers. Not me, I have barely held the cameras, and have never shot with any of them, XT-1/2 or 10 or the X-PRO 1/2..
@northy I was thinking about going down a Fuji/Sony mirrorless route last month. But took a totally different direction instead - and I am loving it! I got a Ricoh GR2 - same quality sensor as my Canon, 23mm equivalent fixed lens - ok, there is a huge compromise there, no lenses to change = no options, right? BUT... it fits in my jeans pocket. I only have one lens option, so I can't faff making my mind up what lenses to bring or use for which image... if the Ricoh is with me I know I'll get a quality image, and I have it with me all the time. And that is a huge, HUGE plus for me. Like you, I have my Canon dSLR for when I want to carry something heavy and bulky with interchangeable lenses. And the Ricoh can't compete with the Canon for macro shots - but I can live with that. The Ricoh has a ton of buttons that are customisable.
Perhaps in a couple of years I might swop my Canon for a mirrorless system - I am tempted. But meanwhile it seems that between my Canon and the Ricoh I have all bases covered.
Seriously - the freedom of a single lens camera that is very portable is awesome.
@northy@frankhymus The fact that with the Fuji XT-1/2, XT-10 and XPro-1/2 there are separate accessible controls for the major functions without the need to go trawling through the menus was a huge plus for me. I'm now far more likely to have the settings right in camera than somewhere in the ball-park and relying on post-processing to sort it all out.
@littlequeenie tx... i actually have a high end sony point and shoot which i expect would do what your ricoh can (and more as it has some zoom)... it's small and awesome and can easily travel with me, but it doesn't quite cut it for some things...
@vignouse@frankhymus i think i've headed into serious crazy territory at this point... went to a different camera store (one i like better, but a bit further from the office) and handled the XT-1, OMD-e-M1 and eM5 ii, as well as the sony a6300 and am now seriously stumped...
the eM5ii is looking the most promising between size and, i think, lens options (including lens weight)... plus the fully articulated screen (;p)... although the a6300 may end up being the path of least resistance...
incidentally, Richard, i asked the sales guy to show me how to switch between aperture and manual mode on the fuji and it kinda made my head spin... ;p
The only issue I can see with the Sony a6300 is that darned somewhat ineffectual array of APS-C lenses from Sony. :(
Sony does have a compete Auto ISO implementation, very suitable for a zoom lens. Fujifilm, none of them, has one that is focal length dependent, something I wonder about when my favorite "walk around" shooting is with a zoom lens.
I must say, that with a good Auto ISO implementation (Fujifilm doesn't have one that is focal length dependent) I don't find myself going to the menus for regular shots. Exposure compensation does it for me if I have to bias for extreme conditions. If you find yourself going to the menus every time you shoot, I think you have set something up less than optimally. I never have in issue with my full DSLR, so why shiuld yo with your mirrorless?
@frankhymus i'm not quite sure what you mean, but i don't generally go thru the menus on the sony nex7 when wanting to make adjustments... for most things i can do it on the go with my eye in the view finder... adjust ISO, EV, aperture or shutter speed, etc...
that said, i've never bothered to learn how to set auto ISO / shutter speed to optimize in challenging shooting conditions - although i'm pretty sure it can be done on the sony... not sure what this functionality is properly called or described so i'm never certain when i read the specs whether it is there or not...
and yes, the lens options from sony are definitely sub-par... one of the main advantages of olympus is there is a decent selection, and my husband would probably have fun buying me a fish eye or a pancake for a birthday or christmas gift ;p
@northy However it goes, just to point out that whatever our style, properly set up in the camera, whatever the camera, we don't fumble in the menus on each shot. What an unbearable drag if we had to. :)
@northy I'm a little puzzled about the switch from aperture mode to manual as you simply turn the lens ring from 'A' to the sperture you want! If it's one of the few lenses without an aperture lens ring then you do the same thing with the knurled sdjustment wheel. It's one click and another of the slide switch on the front to also place it in manual focus.
The Olympi have a fabulous feature for long exposures as you can watch the image gradually building up on the rear screen and stop when it's exactly how you want it....
@vignouse hmmmm... Maybe I got it wrong? Or maybe the xt1 is different? I wasn't looking at the xt10 because it isn't enviro sealed and I am thinking that is a feature I need.
And yes, I've been reading about the long exposure features on the Olympus - yowza!
Not sure if I'm a little late replying to this thread but I would like to give my 2 cents as I have just switched from a 500d Canon to an Olympus eM5 ii.
The 2 systems that I compared was Sony and Olympus (no stores in my area had Fuji, so I never looked into it). The main reason I went with Olympus was price and the lens selection. Keep in mind, you can use Panasonic mircro 4/3 lenses as well, as they have the same lens mount. I love the prime lenses they're so tiny! I only have one at the moment, the 17mm f1.8 which has a two-position snap focus ring (allowing you to quickly change from auto focus to manual), which I love.
I love my camera, I love the size and feel of it. Never had a problem with the menus (that complaint comes up a lot in reviews) as all the buttons and dials can be configured to how you want.
But... one issue I have with this camera is the auto focus detection. DSLRs and higher end mirroless cameras (such as the OMD Em1) use phase detection AF systems, where as the EM5 uses contrast detection instead. I'm not 100% clear on the difference but it isn't as good and I struggle when shooting fast moving subjects. If this is something you do a lot of - I would not recommend it!! I would also check what the Fuji XT1 uses as well.
@frankhymus Hi Frank. I'm renting a Sony a6300 for a week starting August 24th. In all the reading I've been doing about mirrorless, it seems this one at the EM5 are the two that keep rising to the top, for mirrorless and for ability to exchange lenses (I'm renting with a WA zoom and a telephoto zoom). I read about the difficulty of the menu system and want to make the most of my time with the camera. Do you have any advice for getting ready in advance? My plan is to rent this one for a week, and then maybe the EM5. I think you have advised in the past to try out anything we think of buying and that's the direction I'm going -- and thought it would be interesting to try out some different equipment for a change. I know this is a really general question so feel free to ignore it..
You might try this. It's for the a6000, but the menu structure of the a6300 is very similar. And this is just to get started, so you can see how complex and somewhat jumbled and disorganized the menu system is. But the camera is very flexible, probably too much so, but once customized, perhaps with a few saved configurations for different shooting situations, it is a fine camera. If you have any interest in video, the a6300 does it far better than any other APS-C camera, DSLR or Mirrorless, on the market today. The place you will find most difficulty is decoding the Auto Focus options. They work very differently from Nikon. https://photographylife.com/recommended-sony-a6000-settings
The one "negative" I have about Sony APS-C cameras especially is the limited range of good lenses. The best I can say about their kit lenses is "reasonably adequate," and that is being kind. There are a few "e mount" primes that are fine (they are expensive though), but there really is not a high quality general purpose zoom, something like a "standard" 18-200. The best "make do" is the FE (full frame) 25-250, but it gives a rather strange range for an APS-C camera (38mm "equivalent" at the bottom end is not really "wide" at all) and it is heavier and bulkier than a native cropped sensor lens should be. Especially for "mirrorless" it sort of overwhelms the small tight body.
Between the a6300 and the (micro four thirds) Olympus, there really is no comparison for the camera itself. The a6300 wins hands down. The EM series are fine cameras, don't get me wrong, but the a6300 is simply astonishing. The one "positive" of the Olympus over the Sony is the wide selection of good native lenses, not only Olympus. On a scale to suit the small camera body. Also, to be fair, it has a wonderful shooting experience and interface.
Fujifilm have announced, and it will be available in September, the X-T2. It is premium priced ($1,800 at release, body only, I think). There is a superb range of "X" lenses. I am waiting to look at it before I leap to mirrorless. But I'm not sure how the retro look of all of those direct dials and controls fit with what I have become used to. Actually, I don't think I will jump, waiting for the new FF Nikon DSLR to replace the D750. My D7100 is still the third or fourth best APS-C camera for stills in the market, so I think it's with me for the long haul. For video, it's not even in the ballpark though. Perhaps Nikon will announce a serious mirrorless line in a year or so, but I don't think I would jump on Release 1 of it...
Have fun with the rentals. You might have become so used to "full frame" camera behavior that you might be taken a little aback going back to cropped-sensor, let alone micro four thirds. Hang with it...
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Got recently the Xt-1 & 'im so loving it-:) but if you could wait,Xt-2 will be out soon..I'm not really good in giving reviews so attached here's a link ' bout the toy.. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8bddQ9u8WzY
--my only problem the lens are lil'pricey....but the size, the look, feel & images, i think its a fabulous camera:)
actually, i'm really toying with the idea of getting an XT-1 second hand... it's quite a bit lighter than the XT-2, and it would give me a chance to get to know the line before deciding if i want top of the line... plus it will presumably be better than the sony nex7 which is going on for 3 or 4 years old now (i mean - that's positively ancient, right????)
@fotoblah - oh dear... MORE choices to ponder... but very helpful... tx!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fujifilm-X-T1-Mirrorless-Camera-w-18-135mm-Lens-2-Batteries-32GB-More-/321837918042?hash=item4aef08e75a:g:FfEAAOSwDNdV1O3W
Here's an amazon link for body only, used.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00HYAL88W/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1468174798&sr=8-1&keywords=fuji+xt-2&condition=used
Here's what DPReview said about it in 2014. Lots of words, summary in "conclusion" says it all though. If one of the things you don't like about the NEX is the small controls, check out the rear buttons. Are they big enough for you?
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-t1
Here's also what DPR said about the XT-2 in comparison. It does seem significantly improved, but comes in at twice what you can get the XT-1 for. But again, lenses will be the most costly part of the kit, I would say.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-t2-first-impressions-review
Between the Fuji and the Olympus models you mention, DPR thinks well of both. APS-C rather than Micro-four-thirds would swing me to the Fuji. But I have not shot with either, except in the store, so I have no first hand experience.
Did you check out the Sony a6000, and the newer a6300? Yes, a good selection of APS-C E-mount lenses is still a concern for these Sonys, but I think the rest of your complaints, especially about "creative support," are addressed, and then some. Yes, that darn menu system is still a nightmare for new users, but you have plenty of controls to customize, so once set, I don't find it an issue. After all, I think you have found your way through the RX100 maze. If I were upgrading my APS-C camera, but I'm not, I believe it would be to the Sony a6300. Yes folks, and NOT to the Nikon D500.
Good luck, let us know what you decide.
@quietpurplehaze @allie912 oh yes - sony makes a darned good camera... but there are aspects that frustrate me and i think i will need to address them sooner or later...
@frankhymus tx for all the research... especially the DP review of the XT-1... lots to think about!
Yes, all those things! I don't think I'm a camera fanatic either - but not sure of the definition!!
Prices are not here on the fuji site I think, so you'll have to look at, e.g. amazon.com.
so today i went to a camera store (bad bad bad bad bad bad news... there's one at the other end of the block from my office - huge risk for impulse buying ;p) and got to handle the fuji XT-1 and XT-10... have to say that i'm not sure i'm in love with the dials... they didn't have the EM-1 so i don't know how it compares in the hand... on paper it's heavier...
the thought of having a reasonably weather resistant camera is extremely appealing... but of course there's not much use in a camera that is too heavy and uncomfortable to carry around... (i've already got my canon for that ;p)...
film is an interesting thought... i do have a film camera, but back when i was in college i did my own developing... somehow, though, i have not been able to make myself fall back in love with it :(
anyway - thank you for all your input and giving me so much to think about... really not sure what i'm going to do now other than continue to think on it...
@vignouse @domenicododaro @frankhymus @spanner
On the other hand, in your previous posts you sound rather disinterested in Sony, so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here. There are so many excellent cameras to choose from, no point going into one you don't love using.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a6300/8
https://www.amazon.com/Metabones-Canon-Camera-Mount-Adapter/dp/B00L25PTHG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468294642&sr=8-1&keywords=metabones+mkiv
Perhaps in a couple of years I might swop my Canon for a mirrorless system - I am tempted. But meanwhile it seems that between my Canon and the Ricoh I have all bases covered.
Seriously - the freedom of a single lens camera that is very portable is awesome.
@vignouse @frankhymus i think i've headed into serious crazy territory at this point... went to a different camera store (one i like better, but a bit further from the office) and handled the XT-1, OMD-e-M1 and eM5 ii, as well as the sony a6300 and am now seriously stumped...
the eM5ii is looking the most promising between size and, i think, lens options (including lens weight)... plus the fully articulated screen (;p)... although the a6300 may end up being the path of least resistance...
incidentally, Richard, i asked the sales guy to show me how to switch between aperture and manual mode on the fuji and it kinda made my head spin... ;p
and now off to research lens options :D
stay tuned!
Sony does have a compete Auto ISO implementation, very suitable for a zoom lens. Fujifilm, none of them, has one that is focal length dependent, something I wonder about when my favorite "walk around" shooting is with a zoom lens.
I must say, that with a good Auto ISO implementation (Fujifilm doesn't have one that is focal length dependent) I don't find myself going to the menus for regular shots. Exposure compensation does it for me if I have to bias for extreme conditions. If you find yourself going to the menus every time you shoot, I think you have set something up less than optimally. I never have in issue with my full DSLR, so why shiuld yo with your mirrorless?
that said, i've never bothered to learn how to set auto ISO / shutter speed to optimize in challenging shooting conditions - although i'm pretty sure it can be done on the sony... not sure what this functionality is properly called or described so i'm never certain when i read the specs whether it is there or not...
and yes, the lens options from sony are definitely sub-par... one of the main advantages of olympus is there is a decent selection, and my husband would probably have fun buying me a fish eye or a pancake for a birthday or christmas gift ;p
The Olympi have a fabulous feature for long exposures as you can watch the image gradually building up on the rear screen and stop when it's exactly how you want it....
And yes, I've been reading about the long exposure features on the Olympus - yowza!
The 2 systems that I compared was Sony and Olympus (no stores in my area had Fuji, so I never looked into it). The main reason I went with Olympus was price and the lens selection. Keep in mind, you can use Panasonic mircro 4/3 lenses as well, as they have the same lens mount. I love the prime lenses they're so tiny! I only have one at the moment, the 17mm f1.8 which has a two-position snap focus ring (allowing you to quickly change from auto focus to manual), which I love.
I love my camera, I love the size and feel of it. Never had a problem with the menus (that complaint comes up a lot in reviews) as all the buttons and dials can be configured to how you want.
But... one issue I have with this camera is the auto focus detection. DSLRs and higher end mirroless cameras (such as the OMD Em1) use phase detection AF systems, where as the EM5 uses contrast detection instead. I'm not 100% clear on the difference but it isn't as good and I struggle when shooting fast moving subjects. If this is something you do a lot of - I would not recommend it!! I would also check what the Fuji XT1 uses as well.
https://photographylife.com/recommended-sony-a6000-settings
The one "negative" I have about Sony APS-C cameras especially is the limited range of good lenses. The best I can say about their kit lenses is "reasonably adequate," and that is being kind. There are a few "e mount" primes that are fine (they are expensive though), but there really is not a high quality general purpose zoom, something like a "standard" 18-200. The best "make do" is the FE (full frame) 25-250, but it gives a rather strange range for an APS-C camera (38mm "equivalent" at the bottom end is not really "wide" at all) and it is heavier and bulkier than a native cropped sensor lens should be. Especially for "mirrorless" it sort of overwhelms the small tight body.
Between the a6300 and the (micro four thirds) Olympus, there really is no comparison for the camera itself. The a6300 wins hands down. The EM series are fine cameras, don't get me wrong, but the a6300 is simply astonishing. The one "positive" of the Olympus over the Sony is the wide selection of good native lenses, not only Olympus. On a scale to suit the small camera body. Also, to be fair, it has a wonderful shooting experience and interface.
Fujifilm have announced, and it will be available in September, the X-T2. It is premium priced ($1,800 at release, body only, I think). There is a superb range of "X" lenses. I am waiting to look at it before I leap to mirrorless. But I'm not sure how the retro look of all of those direct dials and controls fit with what I have become used to. Actually, I don't think I will jump, waiting for the new FF Nikon DSLR to replace the D750. My D7100 is still the third or fourth best APS-C camera for stills in the market, so I think it's with me for the long haul. For video, it's not even in the ballpark though. Perhaps Nikon will announce a serious mirrorless line in a year or so, but I don't think I would jump on Release 1 of it...
Have fun with the rentals. You might have become so used to "full frame" camera behavior that you might be taken a little aback going back to cropped-sensor, let alone micro four thirds. Hang with it...