Hello all...been thinking a lot recently how I would love a full-frame SLR and feel like I am shooting in the proper 35mm format.
I also think that my crop-sensor 7D with good glass can also achieve some fantastic results.
Has anyone out there who has upgraded from crop-sensor to full-frame got any thoughts about the subject? Any advice?
I am thinking of trading in my DSLR and my two Fuji X cameras, to go full-frame+1 lens, or trading in 1 of my Fuji X cameras and buying a lens for my 7D DSLR.
Steve, my standard advice if you must choose between body and glass is to upgrade the glass. The 7D is a fine camera. You will notice a far greater difference in image quality by upgrading your lenses on the 7D body than you will by upgrading the body with existing lenses.
I upgraded from the 40D to the 5D Mark III a couple of years ago. Before I did, though, I upgraded all of my lenses to L series. The difference the L series lenses made on the 40D was dramatic. The difference in image quality when upgrading to the 5D was there, but not significantly so in a web display. There are other features in the 5D that were far more important - frame rate, focus points and control, high ISO performance, etc - and that's what drove me to upgrade. I wouldn't recommend it just based on image quality.
@stevecameras Can't advise about the relative merits of the Canon cameras, but what do you think a full frame camera will do for you that your 7D or the new 70D won't do? The "proper" 35mm format? What's that? If it is a "standard" 50mm lens on an FX camera, just put a good 35mm on your APS-C 7D and you have the same effect.
A high quality lens for your 7D sounds like the way to go for now. What do you shoot with now? Almost every "expert" or professional I know would say it's usually not about the camera, surely your 7D is still a fine camera, but the glass.
Perhaps the next release of the Sony A7 or A7R might be your target for a "full frame" upgrade? I wouldn't jump immediately, there are still a number of things that need smoothing out, but I am eyeing it for myself...
@frankhymus Franky I agree with all your points. I think I am right in thinking the science behind the sensors means that high-iso shots are dealt with much better on full-frame cameras in terms of noise, and yes I have thought of a 35mm lens on the crop sensor but to me that just doesn't quite cut it. But then is it any different? I am sure there are tests I could find.
I wouldn't change to Sony - lovely cameras but I am a lifelong Canon user so would either go for a 6D of a 5D2 second-hand body.
@kannafoot Thanks Ron.
I do understand your points and have known this makes sense...change the glass no the body. But the full-frame body I do think would handle the higher noise rates better. And I wouldn't use my current lens as it is for crop sensors only.
I would love L glass but would only be buying mid range for now - a 50mm f1.4 lens for example.
I just moved to full frame but upgraded the glass first. Full frame is a big leap in image quality but that said most of us view our images in ways that don't make use of this, on computer or modest sized prints. Viewed this way you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
I chose to go full frame because most of the stuff I enjoy is macro and it allows me to crop and minimise loss of resolution, a very specific reason for me to buy a new toy!
@stevecameras While the "high ISO" and other noise issues might have been a big issue 4-5 years ago to sway you to the "full size" sensors with larger "pixel points" (and thus more light gathering capability) for the same megapixel total number, it really isn't now with ever improving sensor technology. And especially the latest multi-core blindingly fast image processors. Your 7D was one of the first with the "next generation" sensor technology, and the 70D has only continued to improve.
I shoot with a Nikon 24mp APS-C D7100. A good friend has a full-frame Nikon D610 (24mp) and I have shot with it a number of times. Personally, I can't see significant (any?) differences in image quality.
@6plus1blurred
Hi, I shoot all sorts as my page would show (I don't expect you to go look :) but I take most care and effort with shots of my daughter. So portraits but candid ones. Not just typical ones that require a set focal length such as 85mm-100mm. Its partly down to how the camera handles noise etc but also the 'look' of a shot. I'm convinced - perhaps wrongly - that a good lens such as 50mm f1.4 (without shooting to high into the L-range stratosphere :) on a full-frame body looks better than the 35mm on a crop sensor.
But...maybe I am wrong. Just thought I'd start a discussion.
Steve
@kporte Upgrading from a vintage 2006-2008 APS-C camera, certainly. But today's Canon 70D and Nikon D7100, I think any perceived difference is a chimera.
Unless of course you shoot with the $8,000 Nikon D4s or the Canon equivalent, and there the issue is not so much the sensor or "pixel point" size (although the "points" are big m*thas that still make only a 16 mp array) , but the double super top of the line image processor they are all coupled with.
@frankhymus
All points well made and yes I couldn't really disagree. I guess I feel and I may be wrong that the full-frame cameras with good glass just look better than the crop sensor cameras with the wider lenses to get the same effective length with the crop factor.
@stevecameras I did have a brief look at your archive, which was why I asked what your intentions to capture were. You have covered it all.
Fullframe does have a different DOF effect as compared to crop bodies, especially when paired with fast high-quality lenses. I can't help with regard of portraiture, I don't do people, ever!
I got mine (6D) for architecture and landscapes as I want to be able to blow them up large for printing. It's perfect for that. The 5DII is nearly as good, just not so good in lowlight or high ISO.
If your subjects are young and mobile, I'd probably look at keeping the 7D and obtain better faster glass.
Here's a search of 7D and 35mm L on flickr for you to trawl through... Do the same search but for 5DII and 50mm 1.4 L and maybe with the 6D too. See what your eye likes, but be aware that neither the 5DII or the 6D are particularly good at active subjects! OK, not good and coming from the notorious tracking of the 7D, you'll be left wanting!
@stevecameras OK to all that. But I really wouldn't go for the 5Dii, a vintage 2008 camera. I seem to remember a post from Alexis Burkill @abirkill some time ago where he characterized the 6D as an "upgraded 5Dii."
The 5Diii, of course, is a magnificent camera. It is the only Canon camera I have shot with for any amount of time, renting it for a week some time ago, with superb glass. Dare I say it and risk the ire of Nikonites everywhere, I think it beats the D800 hands down. Ken Rockwell (if you can stand to read him) does too. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/d800-vs-5d-mark-iii.htm
One more time, and then I'll quit. If you aren't willing to invest in the best glass, then investing in "full frame" for its "improved image quality" would be a rather pointless exercise.
Why don't you hire a full frame Camera and an L series lens for a week and see how you find them, you can use the lens on the 7D and the FF to get a true comparison.
@frankhymus That's right Frank, glass makes the real difference. No experience of the 70D but I know that the step up in IQ from my 500d to my 6d is huge. If there was no difference between crop and FF why would anyone buy one at the huge premium?
@kporte I upgraded from my D90 to a D600, AFTER investing in the lenses I'd want and using them on the D90 until I could afford the full-frame. I love the full frame and wide angle for all the reasons Keith said. But the full frame with the kit lens isn't strikingly different than the D90 with the better glass. So, as others have said, it's all in the glass, and that should be your first step. For what it's worth, I rarely have bought new equipment. Lenses don't wear out so watch for them on eBay or talk with a camera shop you trust and let them know what you are looking for. You'll save about a third of the original cost if you're lucky.
@kporte Beats me! And the much abused Mr. Ken Rockwell too. :) Dare I say it, but is it as much manufacturer's hype to get you to part with (more than) twice the dollars? A bit of macho bravado too? ;)
@frankhymus haha, probably! No regrets for me though, the difference is really apparent with macro, hugely so but perhaps not so for most photography.
I like Ken Rockwell, what he says makes sense to me mostly and I don't really understand the venom directed towards him!
I have recently upgraded from a Canon 600d to the 6d. I found the major difference is the upgrade in sensor. With the 600 i could not push the ISO above 400 or it would become very blurry and so using Aperture Priority was very hard because the shutter speed was way to slow. But i think the difference between the 7d and 6d would not be so large. I think most people hit the nail on the head by saying buy better glass.. Maybe a Zeiss 50 f2??? :-)
I have a crop sensor camera and I have acquired two full-frame lenses (Sigma 35mm fixed, so 50mm on mine and a Bower manual wide-angle 14mm fixed). I do hope to upgrade at some point but the glass is making the diff. Better aperture helps with the ISO issue no? And processing maybe? At least that is where I am now. Good luck!
I've heard its all in the glass but to be honest, I've been dealing with the temptation of upgrading my 7D too! I'll be reading the posts here for sure!
@orangecrush Jerry, I think it is more a matter that your 7D is 6 year old technology. The 2014 technology of the 70D is probably even better than the 2012 technology of the 6D. Not really an issue of full frame or cropped frame at all.
I wish I knew more about Canons. I've heard that the lenses aren't very interchangeable...but if they are...that was an if...I'd be buying a full frame lens and using it on the cropped body at this point in time...and then maybe another full frame lens. Then when you eventually buy that full frame camera you'll only need to buy the body. This is how I upgraded my Nikon, but,as I said, it does depend on lens interchangeability.
I went from a 60D to a 5DIII - and have been very happy with the results. Something to keep in mind - the 5Dmarkiii has a mount that can only accept L lenses. I traded in my camera and all my old lenses for the new camera and 70-100f4 . Happy shopping!
What glass upgrade would you be considering for your 7D? I had the sigma 17-50 f2.8 with my crop body and it was a beautiful lens. I recently faced the same issue as you and I opted for going full frame with a Canon 6D.... I am 100% I made the right choice for me but at the end of the day it's about what's right for you. The question you have to ask is why do you want a full frame? If you can come up with some legitimate answers then you will probably do it sooner or later so make the leap now if you're in a position to... if it's just a vague ideal then stick with the 7D and upgrade glass! =)
@timandelke Just to clarify, the mount on the 5d Mark III can only accept full-frame lenses. It does not, however, require L-Series lenses. You simply cannot put an APS-C lens on it.
i really wish people wouldn't post threads like this... i can completely wrap myself in knots when i think about what my next step is going to be!
j/k ;p !!!
i always find the discussion instructive... if it were me, i think i would upgrade to a better crop sensor and start investing in the L glass as others have suggested...
but so far i am quite happy to remain in denial and stick with my rapidly aging T2i
I am debating the same question. The tricky thing about upgrading the lenses first is that one doesn't necessarily want the same focal lengths on the crop-sensor camera that one will want on the full-frame.
For those of you @swilde@taffy who bought the lenses first, what was your strategy?
@gazbadger Gaz...what made you actually want to upgrade? I can honestly say that all of the replies I agree with. And the idea if getting better glass over a new body is something I understand. I may have convinced myself of a 'look' of the full-frame that is very achievable with the appropriate glass on a crop body. But I think the high quality coupled with a full-frame body always seems to look that bit better than what the crop sensors do.
But maybe I am just chasing a 'pro-spec' dream...!
Just upgraded from a 1000D to a 6D and an L-series lens (24-105mm) - don't regret it at all. However, I am now in a position where I can't afford any more lenses and I want more (don't we all). The 6d was a balance between the 5D mkIII and the 7D. However, I now want a better macro lens, and m superzoom certainly shows up it's poor quality on the 6D where as it looked fine on the 1000D.
The better the body, the better the lens you need to use it to full effect. If you are on a limited budget the 7D may be a better choice, and spend more on a range of lenses. That said the 6D is super in low light with next to no noise even at 12800 iso. A hard choice you face.
I went the other way recently. Sold off my full dslr gear and have migrated to Fuji.
I noticed I was carrying my camera with me less and less, because of the weight and size of the kit. So early this year i put all my used Canon stuff up for sale and purchased a Fuji x-t1 with the kit lens and I bought a few other lenses used (14 f/2.8 and 35 f/1.4) On my Canon I used a 50mm or 50mm equivalent (35 f/2) a lot , so the Fuji 35mm is great.
I'm happy with the IQ, It's equal or better to my old equipment, but that camera was 5-6 years old (5D Mark I). I could have bought a new full frame camera. I considered Sony's offerings, but came to the conclusion that, while I would save in weight of the camera itself the full frame lenses would be just as heavy as my Canons. I have had the Fuji for 1 1/2 months now and I have to say I love it, the size factor is perfect, the controls remind me of old manual slrs, which is great and the lenses are good too. The other neat thing is the ability to adapt almost any MF lens to the Fuji, I just bought a Vivitar 90mm macro, it's cheap and ridiculously sharp.
I debated that for a while last year too and went with the new 70D....I am very happy with it...it was the right choice for me...I have some good glass and most would be interchangeable with a full frame but part of it was budget, part was a discussion on here, like this, about having good glass, part was talking with the camera shop people (who are very good to me), part was holding both in my hands and feeling what was more comfortable and the most was that my subject matter is mostly nature and so and aps-c makes my 150-500mm Sigma like an 800mm! @jantan has the right idea....rent a full frame and a lens and use it on both for a week and see if you can see a marked difference between the two...what feels better and go from there!
@stevecameras For me it came down to how I use my camera and what I wanted to achieve and I had reached a plateau with my old gear. I love astrophotography and landscapes and the FF sensor and low light capabilities of the 6d just seemed to make it the tool for getting the best results. Also I do a lot of portraits and with my 50mm prime slapped on the front it really makes it very easy to get great results. Don't get me wrong... I was a big fan of my sigma 17-50mm f2.8 but this new kit has opened so many more doors creatively.
My ten penneth. It's all down to what things you want to shoot Steve. I shoot 7D, and quite a bit of everything. I've a number of lenses, some L e.g. the 70-200 F4 and some not e.g. the 10-22, 15-85 and 50. I know that the 7D has its limitations compared to full frame, a bit of IQ at high ISO and noise and a bit of sharpness, but I don't think I've really taken a shot; in low light even that I've thought; I need full frame now. Anyway It won't fix my settings cock ups (which do occur).
7D also has things in it's favour over the 5D. Size and weight for one. I also have 2 flashes, and I like to use the built in wireless transmitter. Ok so it's line of sight, but the 5D is line of nothing, an irritation the forums are littered with.. You're looking at triggers or a master flash realistically to use off camera flash. If I were selling very large prints I might re-think, but the price difference (I'd want a 5D MK3 + an equivalent lens array) doesn't equal the extra IQ.
In YOUR case, with the items to trade in, I'd get a new lens, something full frame compatible (future proofing), but I don't think the 5D MK2 is a no brainer over the 7D. With L glass, the 7D can still sing, and I'm always put off by the fact that it's a HUGE investment just to get an equivalent lens array in full frame if you're not already shooting full frame compatible glass, which even then would obviously differ in focal length.
@tomo87 Very comprehensive Tom and as with the comments above, I can't quite disagree on anything. Unless I suddenly decide I am a pro (which I am not :) then the new lens is the choice rather than the new body!
@kannafoot@frankhymus@kporte@6plus1blurred@jantan@longexposure@darylo@orangecrush@mcrt@swilde@timandelke@gazbadger@prochownia@lynnb@iwatts@klas
Thank you all :))
I like getting a discussion going and I appreciate you all taking the time to respond. If I had to make a decision I think the most sensible thing to do is to get better glass over a new body for now. I am sort of still convinced that the way the full-frame looks with great glass is better than crop sensors, but I also know that beauty is in the eye of blah blah etc :))
The 35mm f1.8 or the 50mm f1.4 might be two lenses to consider depending on how tight I want to be. I have looked on Flickr at shots with the 7D, and the 35mm (non-L) at f2 and the results are awesome.
Choices, choices....!
@bsheppard Beth, I knew I'd want a good 50mm which is about a 75 on the cropped sensor and I bought a 105mm macro. I already had a 300 (with no flash vr ) and an 80mm (ditto) from pre-digital days. I'm still waiting (saving) to replace the 300.
Probably a bit late for me to join in, but I am going to agree with Tom, your current camera is perfectly capable and will service all your needs. A new lens is definitely the way forward, although I know if it was me I'd struggle to lose my X100 to pay for it!
I have a 5D and also a 50D and often take the 50D out over the full frame 5D because its that bit lighter and smaller and still handles noise reasonably well.
@vokesy I know Andrew...it's the X100 or the X20. The only reason the X20 wins is because of the zoom. But the low light capability, and f2 lens of the X100 wins over the X20. But I love my SLR shots when they come out well. I just need a lottery win and then I don;t need to post threads like this... :)
I have a 7D and have often dreamed of full frame. Then I started doing the 365 project, then I realized the best camera you have is the one you always carry. So, for the last few months I have toted my Ricoh GR with me everywhere and my 7D has seen very little use.
I am over craving bigger and better kit and am trying my hardest to improve my soft skills.
I upgraded from a 500d to a 5dii last year as soon as cannon announced the 5dii was being discontinued (at £3k at the time there was no way i could afford the mkiii).
I purchased the 500d as a kit & within 12 months had upgraded the lenses to a 16-40 & 70-200 L series. My main reason for going with the 5dii was that it handles noise better, i used to find on the 500d that going over iso400 degraded the image too much for my liking regardless of the money i had invested in lenses. I sold the 500d but do wished i had kept it for the same reason that @vokesy has stated (weight)
@stevecameras I'd get rid of the X20, you already have a zoom on your SLR and I'd definitely keep my X100 if it was me, I love that little camera. Sometimes not having a zoom can be fun, makes you think a bit!
I'm late in seeing this - but I upgraded from the 7D to 6D last fall. Total difference in noise and low light capabilities - the 2 reasons that made me upgrade. I keep the 7D for action shots and use my 6D for low light and landscape. For the last two years I was purchasing lenses that would work for full frame so it wasn't hard to transition.
@stevecameras I'm of two minds of this... however I would lean towards upgrading glass before upgrading the body.
My first upgrade was from my teensy 500D to my 6D. The first thing I noticed was that I love the full frame - you get so much more in, and it offers so much more versatility in terms of wide-angle lenses (I have the 17-40mm f/4L and the wide-angle is epic!). The second thing I noticed was better clarity/quality of images, particularly at higher ISOs (meaning I could push the envelope a LOT more in low-light situations, where my 500D would seriously struggle).
Then, I took a second leap and purchased Canon's 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II. Like seriously, this lens is so damn sharp, even (especially!) at 200mm, it is crazy:
But, it's extremely heavy and cumbersome to lug around. So, for around-the-house/casual shooting, I will definitely opt for my 50mm f/1.4, which is pretty much glued to my camera. :D
So this is why I am of two minds. A body upgrade will certainly boost your camera's capabilities overall, but a good lens will really broaden the kinds of shots you can take.
A body upgrade to full-frame also means changing the way you use your existing lenses (and your EF-S lenses that work on a crop sensor camera will not be compatible with a full-frame).
Given that the 7D is a pretty awesome camera (and is 1.3x crop, not 1.6x like the 500D), if in your shoes I would probably invest in a killer lens now (make sure it's EF and not EF-S!), then supplement with a 5D Mk III or 6D down the track. That depends, however, on what lenses you already have, and your style of photography, and the direction in which you want to take your photography...!
I'm going to be the devils advocate here and acknowledge that while your shooting style may not require FF, there's a little somethign called "upgraditis" which we all get.
While I agree that good glass is definiately worth while, if you DO suffer from the dreaded upgraditis and you know your pocket can stretch, I would go the FF first. Why? well based on your shooting style. Lets say you like portraits and love the 80mm focal length... so sure you get a good 50mm f1.4. Maybe you decide to get something a 35mm as well.. yay lets splash out and get a few things.
THEN a year / two later, you decide meh, lets get the FF anyway. Well your 50mm is suddenly now a true 50mm. You're not going to have that focal length you love. So wait, I now have to buy a 80mm (in my case 85mm sigma f1.4). I also need to get a few other lenses to fit the focal lengths i loved before but now my primes just DONT match. You'll find that you've actually wasted a bunch of money to get the lovely primes for a crop.. now have to respend to get it on FF.
@toast Thank you for replying.
I totally understand what you're saying and I have thought of this myself. his is why I think it's ideal if you can go FF with good glass. If I get the Sigma 30mm f1.4 as nice as it might be, then when I go FF I don;t have my '50mm' anymore. I don't think I want to get a prime right now that's bigger than 50mm. The Canon 50mm f14 is lovely but on my 7D it's too long. No idea what to do....! :)))
@soseema
Thank you. Very kind of you to say.
I think I am just looking for a certain 'look' in my shots, compositionally yes but also just the way the glass helps to make it look. Full-frame with prime lenses certainly does appeal but I now that there are ways, when you can't afford all that lovely gear, to go about getting the type of look I want.
@stevecamerass it's a tough choice but only you can say what's best for your mate :)
Just wondering if you're shooting portraits then the 50 would have given you a nice 80mm focal length ... Should be better than a 30 on your crop right?
@toast Hi!
I have been thinking a lot about this. And it struck me that I really have to ask myself what I really enjoy shooting. I love some of the work on here, of which I don't shoot, such as landscapes. I love the idea of producing the images...grad filters, polarisers, lots of lovely colours of lakes, of fields with the sun rising or setting in the distance...but I don't actually shoot that stuff in general. I think if I can be so bold that I shoot street photography (and I use that term loosely through fear of offending real, and proper street photographers :) and portraits, with the occasional bit of actuality/documentary as a style.
So I suppose I want a lens that is fast, to enable shooting that doesn't allow much time for composition, that is tight enough with a nice f stop to produce a shallow DOF, but also wide enough with a little space to capture a scene. I think the Canon 50mm f1.4 is a lovely lens but too tight for the 7D. I think the choice would either be the Sigma f1.4 30mm, or the Canon 28mm f1.8.
@subseasniper
Brian, apologies for the late response. And I have been meaning to ask you, did you write a comment for Digital Photography School online magazine recently?
I only ask because there was one by someone that quoted using the Ricoh GR and that the best camera was "the one you have on you". Just wondered if it was you?
And since writing post I can say I am still craving the full-frame kit, and all the lovely L-series lenses, but it comes in fits and starts, so I have used my 7D, my Fuji X100 and Fuji X20 and enjoyed using all of them immensely.
So chasing the dream I suppose is rather futile...and I like you should stick to getting better with what I have got. :)
@stevecameras interesting choice... i can never get a handle on street photography - I guess there's that phobia of what if they dont want to be photographed and the whole confrontational thing.
so the few times i've done street photography, I've wanted a longer lens to shoot and get out of there :)
30mm on a crop lens and boy, you'd want to be pretty close to your subject... scary?
I am wondering the exact same thing at the moment - I read this entire thread... I agree with all the points that have been made so that means I also didn't come to a conclusion but for now I signed up for this 365 project because I am going to just try to do better with what I have (I use Canon 60d and canon 7d bodies) and was wondering about upgrading because I wanted something better in low light and like that they finally have a full frame (6d) that will feel nice in my small hands haha - anyways for now I will start shooting every day and then I think I will know better what to do. Thanks for all the people that replied and for the original post!!
I am trying to figure out how to follow you on here cuz I'm intrigued by the shots you're taking with your 7d nice work!
www.facebook.com/jessiolsenphotography
@jessiolsenphotography
Hi..!
I was a bit surprised to see a new reply to this thread given how old it is.
I have sold my 7D and my Fuji X100 cameras and now own the Fuji X-E2.
This is because the RAW files from my X100 were amazing but I wanted the interchangeable lenses, and the Fuji X bodies are so light and easy to carry over a large DSLR.
So i opted for another Fuji X body.
If you want to follow anyone just click on their username @stevecameras in my case, and hit follow. :)
But I haven't shot with a 7D since 2015, although for a few months up until a couple of weeks ago I had use of a Canon 5D3 which was lovely.
If I were to have an opinion about all this now I would say buy whatever you can afford. If you can get a full-frame body then great go for it. If you love your crop-sensor then maybe get new lenses. Also if you can take the weight that comes with all that gear then also good - in my case I love how portable the Fuji X cameras are and this is one of the reasons I use them.
Haha didn't realize how old it was :) I'll have to go back and look at 2015;)
the 6d is the first full frame that's been appealing because it's as small as my 60d and used it's at a price I can afford. So now, are u ever still tempted to go full frame for low light or you like your fujixe2?
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I upgraded from the 40D to the 5D Mark III a couple of years ago. Before I did, though, I upgraded all of my lenses to L series. The difference the L series lenses made on the 40D was dramatic. The difference in image quality when upgrading to the 5D was there, but not significantly so in a web display. There are other features in the 5D that were far more important - frame rate, focus points and control, high ISO performance, etc - and that's what drove me to upgrade. I wouldn't recommend it just based on image quality.
A high quality lens for your 7D sounds like the way to go for now. What do you shoot with now? Almost every "expert" or professional I know would say it's usually not about the camera, surely your 7D is still a fine camera, but the glass.
Perhaps the next release of the Sony A7 or A7R might be your target for a "full frame" upgrade? I wouldn't jump immediately, there are still a number of things that need smoothing out, but I am eyeing it for myself...
I wouldn't change to Sony - lovely cameras but I am a lifelong Canon user so would either go for a 6D of a 5D2 second-hand body.
And on my 7D I just have a Sigma 17-50mm f2.8 :)
I do understand your points and have known this makes sense...change the glass no the body. But the full-frame body I do think would handle the higher noise rates better. And I wouldn't use my current lens as it is for crop sensors only.
I would love L glass but would only be buying mid range for now - a 50mm f1.4 lens for example.
I chose to go full frame because most of the stuff I enjoy is macro and it allows me to crop and minimise loss of resolution, a very specific reason for me to buy a new toy!
I shoot with a Nikon 24mp APS-C D7100. A good friend has a full-frame Nikon D610 (24mp) and I have shot with it a number of times. Personally, I can't see significant (any?) differences in image quality.
Hi, I shoot all sorts as my page would show (I don't expect you to go look :) but I take most care and effort with shots of my daughter. So portraits but candid ones. Not just typical ones that require a set focal length such as 85mm-100mm. Its partly down to how the camera handles noise etc but also the 'look' of a shot. I'm convinced - perhaps wrongly - that a good lens such as 50mm f1.4 (without shooting to high into the L-range stratosphere :) on a full-frame body looks better than the 35mm on a crop sensor.
But...maybe I am wrong. Just thought I'd start a discussion.
Steve
Unless of course you shoot with the $8,000 Nikon D4s or the Canon equivalent, and there the issue is not so much the sensor or "pixel point" size (although the "points" are big m*thas that still make only a 16 mp array) , but the double super top of the line image processor they are all coupled with.
All points well made and yes I couldn't really disagree. I guess I feel and I may be wrong that the full-frame cameras with good glass just look better than the crop sensor cameras with the wider lenses to get the same effective length with the crop factor.
Fullframe does have a different DOF effect as compared to crop bodies, especially when paired with fast high-quality lenses. I can't help with regard of portraiture, I don't do people, ever!
I got mine (6D) for architecture and landscapes as I want to be able to blow them up large for printing. It's perfect for that. The 5DII is nearly as good, just not so good in lowlight or high ISO.
If your subjects are young and mobile, I'd probably look at keeping the 7D and obtain better faster glass.
Here's a search of 7D and 35mm L on flickr for you to trawl through... Do the same search but for 5DII and 50mm 1.4 L and maybe with the 6D too. See what your eye likes, but be aware that neither the 5DII or the 6D are particularly good at active subjects! OK, not good and coming from the notorious tracking of the 7D, you'll be left wanting!
https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=7d%2035mm%20L&sort=relevance
The 5Diii, of course, is a magnificent camera. It is the only Canon camera I have shot with for any amount of time, renting it for a week some time ago, with superb glass. Dare I say it and risk the ire of Nikonites everywhere, I think it beats the D800 hands down. Ken Rockwell (if you can stand to read him) does too. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/d800-vs-5d-mark-iii.htm
One more time, and then I'll quit. If you aren't willing to invest in the best glass, then investing in "full frame" for its "improved image quality" would be a rather pointless exercise.
I like Ken Rockwell, what he says makes sense to me mostly and I don't really understand the venom directed towards him!
I would hate to give up my 1.6 multiplier on the crop sensor for a full frame. I love that my 300 mm is equal to 480 mm on my camera.
j/k ;p !!!
i always find the discussion instructive... if it were me, i think i would upgrade to a better crop sensor and start investing in the L glass as others have suggested...
but so far i am quite happy to remain in denial and stick with my rapidly aging T2i
For those of you @swilde @taffy who bought the lenses first, what was your strategy?
But maybe I am just chasing a 'pro-spec' dream...!
The better the body, the better the lens you need to use it to full effect. If you are on a limited budget the 7D may be a better choice, and spend more on a range of lenses. That said the 6D is super in low light with next to no noise even at 12800 iso. A hard choice you face.
I noticed I was carrying my camera with me less and less, because of the weight and size of the kit. So early this year i put all my used Canon stuff up for sale and purchased a Fuji x-t1 with the kit lens and I bought a few other lenses used (14 f/2.8 and 35 f/1.4) On my Canon I used a 50mm or 50mm equivalent (35 f/2) a lot , so the Fuji 35mm is great.
I'm happy with the IQ, It's equal or better to my old equipment, but that camera was 5-6 years old (5D Mark I). I could have bought a new full frame camera. I considered Sony's offerings, but came to the conclusion that, while I would save in weight of the camera itself the full frame lenses would be just as heavy as my Canons. I have had the Fuji for 1 1/2 months now and I have to say I love it, the size factor is perfect, the controls remind me of old manual slrs, which is great and the lenses are good too. The other neat thing is the ability to adapt almost any MF lens to the Fuji, I just bought a Vivitar 90mm macro, it's cheap and ridiculously sharp.
7D also has things in it's favour over the 5D. Size and weight for one. I also have 2 flashes, and I like to use the built in wireless transmitter. Ok so it's line of sight, but the 5D is line of nothing, an irritation the forums are littered with.. You're looking at triggers or a master flash realistically to use off camera flash. If I were selling very large prints I might re-think, but the price difference (I'd want a 5D MK3 + an equivalent lens array) doesn't equal the extra IQ.
In YOUR case, with the items to trade in, I'd get a new lens, something full frame compatible (future proofing), but I don't think the 5D MK2 is a no brainer over the 7D. With L glass, the 7D can still sing, and I'm always put off by the fact that it's a HUGE investment just to get an equivalent lens array in full frame if you're not already shooting full frame compatible glass, which even then would obviously differ in focal length.
Thank you all :))
I like getting a discussion going and I appreciate you all taking the time to respond. If I had to make a decision I think the most sensible thing to do is to get better glass over a new body for now. I am sort of still convinced that the way the full-frame looks with great glass is better than crop sensors, but I also know that beauty is in the eye of blah blah etc :))
The 35mm f1.8 or the 50mm f1.4 might be two lenses to consider depending on how tight I want to be. I have looked on Flickr at shots with the 7D, and the 35mm (non-L) at f2 and the results are awesome.
Choices, choices....!
I am over craving bigger and better kit and am trying my hardest to improve my soft skills.
I purchased the 500d as a kit & within 12 months had upgraded the lenses to a 16-40 & 70-200 L series. My main reason for going with the 5dii was that it handles noise better, i used to find on the 500d that going over iso400 degraded the image too much for my liking regardless of the money i had invested in lenses. I sold the 500d but do wished i had kept it for the same reason that @vokesy has stated (weight)
My first upgrade was from my teensy 500D to my 6D. The first thing I noticed was that I love the full frame - you get so much more in, and it offers so much more versatility in terms of wide-angle lenses (I have the 17-40mm f/4L and the wide-angle is epic!). The second thing I noticed was better clarity/quality of images, particularly at higher ISOs (meaning I could push the envelope a LOT more in low-light situations, where my 500D would seriously struggle).
Then, I took a second leap and purchased Canon's 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II. Like seriously, this lens is so damn sharp, even (especially!) at 200mm, it is crazy:
But, it's extremely heavy and cumbersome to lug around. So, for around-the-house/casual shooting, I will definitely opt for my 50mm f/1.4, which is pretty much glued to my camera. :D
So this is why I am of two minds. A body upgrade will certainly boost your camera's capabilities overall, but a good lens will really broaden the kinds of shots you can take.
A body upgrade to full-frame also means changing the way you use your existing lenses (and your EF-S lenses that work on a crop sensor camera will not be compatible with a full-frame).
Given that the 7D is a pretty awesome camera (and is 1.3x crop, not 1.6x like the 500D), if in your shoes I would probably invest in a killer lens now (make sure it's EF and not EF-S!), then supplement with a 5D Mk III or 6D down the track. That depends, however, on what lenses you already have, and your style of photography, and the direction in which you want to take your photography...!
While I agree that good glass is definiately worth while, if you DO suffer from the dreaded upgraditis and you know your pocket can stretch, I would go the FF first. Why? well based on your shooting style. Lets say you like portraits and love the 80mm focal length... so sure you get a good 50mm f1.4. Maybe you decide to get something a 35mm as well.. yay lets splash out and get a few things.
THEN a year / two later, you decide meh, lets get the FF anyway. Well your 50mm is suddenly now a true 50mm. You're not going to have that focal length you love. So wait, I now have to buy a 80mm (in my case 85mm sigma f1.4). I also need to get a few other lenses to fit the focal lengths i loved before but now my primes just DONT match. You'll find that you've actually wasted a bunch of money to get the lovely primes for a crop.. now have to respend to get it on FF.
I totally understand what you're saying and I have thought of this myself. his is why I think it's ideal if you can go FF with good glass. If I get the Sigma 30mm f1.4 as nice as it might be, then when I go FF I don;t have my '50mm' anymore. I don't think I want to get a prime right now that's bigger than 50mm. The Canon 50mm f14 is lovely but on my 7D it's too long. No idea what to do....! :)))
Thank you. Very kind of you to say.
I think I am just looking for a certain 'look' in my shots, compositionally yes but also just the way the glass helps to make it look. Full-frame with prime lenses certainly does appeal but I now that there are ways, when you can't afford all that lovely gear, to go about getting the type of look I want.
Just wondering if you're shooting portraits then the 50 would have given you a nice 80mm focal length ... Should be better than a 30 on your crop right?
I have been thinking a lot about this. And it struck me that I really have to ask myself what I really enjoy shooting. I love some of the work on here, of which I don't shoot, such as landscapes. I love the idea of producing the images...grad filters, polarisers, lots of lovely colours of lakes, of fields with the sun rising or setting in the distance...but I don't actually shoot that stuff in general. I think if I can be so bold that I shoot street photography (and I use that term loosely through fear of offending real, and proper street photographers :) and portraits, with the occasional bit of actuality/documentary as a style.
So I suppose I want a lens that is fast, to enable shooting that doesn't allow much time for composition, that is tight enough with a nice f stop to produce a shallow DOF, but also wide enough with a little space to capture a scene. I think the Canon 50mm f1.4 is a lovely lens but too tight for the 7D. I think the choice would either be the Sigma f1.4 30mm, or the Canon 28mm f1.8.
Brian, apologies for the late response. And I have been meaning to ask you, did you write a comment for Digital Photography School online magazine recently?
I only ask because there was one by someone that quoted using the Ricoh GR and that the best camera was "the one you have on you". Just wondered if it was you?
And since writing post I can say I am still craving the full-frame kit, and all the lovely L-series lenses, but it comes in fits and starts, so I have used my 7D, my Fuji X100 and Fuji X20 and enjoyed using all of them immensely.
So chasing the dream I suppose is rather futile...and I like you should stick to getting better with what I have got. :)
so the few times i've done street photography, I've wanted a longer lens to shoot and get out of there :)
30mm on a crop lens and boy, you'd want to be pretty close to your subject... scary?
I am trying to figure out how to follow you on here cuz I'm intrigued by the shots you're taking with your 7d nice work!
www.facebook.com/jessiolsenphotography
Hi..!
I was a bit surprised to see a new reply to this thread given how old it is.
I have sold my 7D and my Fuji X100 cameras and now own the Fuji X-E2.
This is because the RAW files from my X100 were amazing but I wanted the interchangeable lenses, and the Fuji X bodies are so light and easy to carry over a large DSLR.
So i opted for another Fuji X body.
If you want to follow anyone just click on their username @stevecameras in my case, and hit follow. :)
But I haven't shot with a 7D since 2015, although for a few months up until a couple of weeks ago I had use of a Canon 5D3 which was lovely.
If I were to have an opinion about all this now I would say buy whatever you can afford. If you can get a full-frame body then great go for it. If you love your crop-sensor then maybe get new lenses. Also if you can take the weight that comes with all that gear then also good - in my case I love how portable the Fuji X cameras are and this is one of the reasons I use them.
the 6d is the first full frame that's been appealing because it's as small as my 60d and used it's at a price I can afford. So now, are u ever still tempted to go full frame for low light or you like your fujixe2?