I understand the basic idea of what HDR is. different exposures stacked to get good low light and highlight areas.
My question is... What makes some of them scream "HDR HDR HDR", and some are just amazingly better than reality? What makes some so obvious and some so subtle?
I think ultimately it's up to the photographer's taste. Some like the overcooked, halo-y images that look unreal (almost cartoonish). And some prefer a more natural look like what the eye would see. Obvious and subtle, as you said. The software you use gets you close to what you are looking for and then further tweaks within the software or other editing software is up to each photog.
I think the overdone look is meant to be more of an arty style.
I truly mean no disrepect to anyone by using the terms overcooked or overdone. They are just terms I've read when referring to images processed that way.
yes a lot has to do with the choices you make in using the hdr software. pretty much all of my images are hdr but you would not necessarily know that -- when i use the presets in the software i tend to tone map to bring out the dynamic range i.e.. highlights and shadows and decrease the gamma and the luminosity.
When you upload your photos into the HDR processing program you have a lot of sliders to choose from eg saturation, luminosity, strength, contrast
the higher you bump them up the greater the effect. When I first tried it I thought more is better, now I often just use it just to brighten and even out the light and shadow.
It is all about the person at the controls... some just like bending 'reality' into 'silly.' But, that is their right, as photography is an artform, and if the maker is happy, so be it. No one is saying the viewer has to like it... it is sort of like pixel bending!!! LOL
@tigerdreamer skill, practice, talent, knowing when to step it back a bit. I think stacking them as a batch edit instead of just using something that does it quickly for you. Also I have to say it is about taste and keeping it real instead of fantasy. I have to try doing a batch edit of three photos taken as a bracket (regular, under and over exposed) and putting them together in a realistic way. I plan on trying this week.
@mikehamm Thanks Mike, that was very helpful. About a lot of things in processing, especially part 2.
So the answer seems to be that it isn't so much about the HDR itself, but the other processing that can be done at the same time.
And I hope too that I have not offended anyone by asking the question. I realize almost everything about any art is subjective and up to the artists eye.
It seems like everyone else covered this pretty well, but I'm gonna chime in here because I can never keep my mouth shut, or so they've been telling me since kindergarten.
Some HDR shots scream HDR shots because of a complete and utter lack of taste, or such a low and misinformed sense of taste that such a person could mistake the metallic tang of rust for the sweetness of chocolate.
This site and, really, the internet in general is abound with "photographers" who drag and drop their bracketed shots or single RAWs into the HDR pressure cooker, and spit out some horribly atrocious junk by maxing out all of their available options, because they can't sift through each and find a delicate balance.
When you're cooking, you add certain amounts of certain ingredients. You don't just dump everything together in pot and turn on the heat. But, hey, it's an addiction, and I know this because I used to be one of them. I thankfully had an epiphany after looking back on several HDR photos of mine, and realizing they were absolute monsters that not even a mother (or, in my case, father) could love. What have I created? I would ask myself. I don't know, but never again, I vowed.
You could get all artsy fartsy about it and say that everyone has a right to make their pictures look how they want and you would be absolutely correct. That is certainly their right. However, it seems that everyone and their mother forgot that people could be bad artists, and that the hoi polloi (mainly the internet at large) have completely forgotten how to differentiate good from bad. Instead, we celebrate everything regardless of its quality and skill. We see bright colors and sunsets, and we think pretty.
Perhaps it's the overload of bad, or the overload of information in general. There's so much to process that we simply don't have time to critique and to judge or to understand everything (and I certainly find that most people completely disregard the latter, or anything at all to do with attaining knowledge simply because of the effort and time involved in doing so).
I guess it's far easier to applaud someone for their efforts, write "stunning" on their wall, and give them a fave, because we're too lazy to educate them or to speak the truth because the explanation will require more energy than we feel worth expending. "Your photo is oversaturated, oversharpened, off balance, your whites are dull, your blacks are depthless, and this is how you fix them, this is how you improve," is what we should say.
But, no, we don't. Instead, we allow it to go on, and we accept the current standard that drops lower and lower everyday as people become lazier and lazier.
That's why HDR is bad. Because technology made it accessible. It made it a right of the masses, and not a privilege of the few. With that said, there are many who excel in HDR photography, and are truly in a class of their own. But now, because everyone is capable of clumsily performing this "artistic" process, the work of the masters now hangs in the gallery of the plebes. What's worse is that nobody notices.
And chances are nobody is going to read this anyway, because it's long and will take a couple minutes.
@gurry I read it. If you ever care to look at ANY of my photos and tell me how to fix them, I would be grateful for any and all help, from anyone.
Although I do, respectfully, reserve the right to disagree with your critique.
Kidding, but you must be weary when asking for critiques because sometimes people are not constructive. In most cases, you have to cherry pick the worthwhile commentary out of a flaming pile of subjectivity, and do your best to not be repulsed or offended by the latter. It's a cruel world, this internet planet.
Here, just for fun, below is a little reading on how one should judge. If you understand how to judge objectively, it makes it all the easier to pick out worthwhile judgments.
The text is a bit esoteric and clunky, but like the introduction says, it's essentially the foundation of aesthetics (and judgment).
@gurry ... Bravo for speaking out! I take the liberty of pasting part of your comment below, after trying patiently and politely (VERY PATIENTLY AND VERY POLITELY) to let everyone know that the "Emperors New Clothes" approach is unhelpful and I do not therefore applaud images which appear to have no taste and no good reason. The fault is not in the beginner's lack of knowledge or expertise (because we all have to start somewhere, and they should be applauded for trying new ideas) but in others who don't understand it either, and just say "Great" or "Fav" because they think it is expected, and want to please.
Your words are repeated here:
"I guess it's far easier to applaud someone for their efforts, write "stunning" on their wall, and give them a fave, because we're too lazy to educate them or to speak the truth because the explanation will require more energy than we feel worth expending. "Your photo is oversaturated, oversharpened, off balance, your whites are dull, your blacks are depthless, and this is how you fix them, this is how you improve," is what we should say.
But, no, we don't. Instead, we allow it to go on, and we accept the current standard that drops lower and lower everyday as people become lazier and lazier."
It needed to be said, but I was too polite (or timid) to say it, although some who have read my own comments in my albums have expressed broad agreement.
@wordpixman Egads, I don't think I've ever seen a more succinct and applicable wording for the situation than "the 'Emperor's New Clothes' approach". That is absolutely spot on.
I remember getting into a 'discussion' with another 365er when I was a bit newer to the place because I happened to mention that I don't comment on all photos. I told them I thought it was disingenuous to be complimentary when I actually didn't think it was a good photo and I wasn't willing to be dishonest. They were flabbergasted and made no bones about how tacky they thought I was for holding my tongue. "But can't you make up at least ONE nice thing to say about everyone's photo?! I guess I just can't be that rude."
@gurry I always take any comments on aesthetics with a grain of salt.
What you suggested, and I request, are critiques and comments on technical and craft aspects of my work.
I might agree that people generally say nice things to be polite. I don't think that is so awful. (aesthetics)
However, I think rather than lazy, many people have not been taught how to judge most things. What is the judgement set for critiquing what makes a good photo.
As a teacher, I teach my students how to critique writing, theirs or others, according to specific traits. There are classes on how to judge wines.
Maybe all the outspoken and experienced photographers on this site could produce a list of reasonably objective traits to use when we talk about each others work.
@beautifulthing ... Thank you. I have also had some quite serious abuse thrown at me for not commenting on every post, and my explanation that empty or sycophantic words are even less helpful than no words at all has also received some unpleasant responses. I try to make helpful comments where possible (if I sincerely believe that my remarks will bear examination) but have learnt that some people find honest criticism less acceptable than applause, and will say so in the strongest terms, so I bite my tongue to avoid hurting their feelings.
@gurry
I agree with you on a lot of points about people who are bad artists/have little experience and everyone being too nice (which really only worsens the problem of people who suck and have no experience).
A lot of the time I feel like I'm one of the kids pushing out some the crap work, not because I think it's just wonderful, but because what I saw in my head I couldn't get in the picture. I put it out there because I want to look back at some point and say "Okay....do NOT do that again." And I hope that when someone else sees it, they might give me a bit of advice of what I could have done instead (although I know I tend to set myself up for some harsh comments this way......)
I find it kind of frustrating sometimes when someone comments on my pictures "Great photo". Why is it so great?? Did you like the color? dof? concept? gimme something to work with...Especially on photos I really don't think are much better than decent. I mean I appreciate the compliment and all but it doesn't help me out much more than an ego boost.
Something about putting up my best photo of the day on here, even if it is total crap, really makes me want to improve more and prove to that crappy photo I can do better. I have to see my worst before I can produce my best kind of thing.
@gurry Yes. I totally agree with your point about sifting through subjectivity when asking for critique. I've asked for critique on a few of my shots when I honestly thought something was wrong with the shot and couldn't see how to fix it. Bring on the avalanche of people just seeking out something, anything to find that they don't like about said shot. Now I have to turn a deaf ear (so to speak) to all the critique that I disagree with or just find completely unhelpful (things like "I think the sky's a bit dull" - not a lot I can do about the situation in that particular shot - the weather does what the weather will....) -but, amongst the avalanche of critique, I found a few, worthwhile gems of knowledge that helped me tweak the shot just that tiny bit different the next time I have the occasion to shoot the same scene, in a similar style. And sometimes....I just flat out don't care that someone thinks the composition is off, or whatever the case may be. I LIKE it that way, will keep it that way. It's all a matter of finding what you're happy with. And when you're not happy, asking why. @beautifulthing That wasn't me that said that, was it? No, it wasn't. I don't think. What I think I said was that I always try and find one TRUE thing that I like about each photo. I'm not that great in the critiqueing department, but every now and then I get brave enough to say "hey, I think I might try this....."
But I remember having that similar conversation with you, and I like that you don't comment on everysingleshotthatgetspostedinyournewsfeed. It just means I feel extra special when you do comment on one of my shots that you like:)
@pwallis Aw you the bestest. :) It totally wasn't you, it was some random on the boards. I think we are nicely in sync, you and I, when it comes to commenting. :D
@gurry I read it and you're spot on. I have only been on 365 for just over two months but the one thing that jumped out at me was how uncritical people are. It's nice to be faved, of course, and I've noticed also that if my picture hasn't made a hit, it doesn't get commented on by the photographers whose work I admire. But it would be so helpful if someone would give a little constructive criticism if I've missed the mark.
@gurry I read it :) I mostly agree with you, but I don't agree that "HDR is bad"... that would be like going to a few Thai restaurants and having bad food and saying "Thai food is bad"... its not if you know where to go for the good stuff.
That said, I do believe there is a time and a place for HDR to be easy to spot, provided it doesn't go overboard. In Photomatix, there is a preset called "Grunge"... just for fun, while processing, I click on it to see what happens. There has NEVER been an instance when that setting has produced a result that I didn't find to be an absolute eyesore! Yet I find a lot of people on 365 love to go grunge with their HDR processing. Why?
@tigerdreamer it would help to know what you mean by "makes some of them scream "HDR HDR HDR"," Are you referring to the unnatural, oversaturated colors and neon vomit appearance some HDR has? Are you referring to any HDR that you look at and know it is HDR because the lighting is impossible in the real world? (you know, the ones where you see details your naked eye didn't see because of shadows that would have hidden the details). When people go too subtle on HDR processing, it looks smooth and flat, like a normal photograph, so what is the point of HDR in those cases?
@gurry I also wanted to add that the one time you gave me advice on processing a photo was so spot on that if I ever get frustrated in trying to get what I'm wanting out of post proc, don't be surprised if I go straight to you. You know your sh!t
@gurry I read your nicely phrased a paragraphed rant about hdr, laughed, chuckled, agreed and disagreed. For many, photography is a hobby and we are all going to play at some point. HDR is fun, overuse and then most of us just walk away.
@brumbe@tigerdreamer@nikkic@pwallis@beautifulthing@janturnbull@jsw0109@wordpixman The whole honesty thing on the internet is not going to happen. When people want critique the problem that Paula mentioned, happens. We do all want to improve, but any time I have mentioned a small, did you think to up the contrast, or straighten a horizon line, I got a not so nice retort back, which led me to believe that the person who said they wanted honesty did not. So instead of being honest, I don't comment. When I do comment, then others say the comments aren't genuine, which if I am going to take the time to say it, I will mean it. Or maybe my photos are crap and I am not the person they want to learn from. I am find with that too. But when you say you want opinions, you are going to get opinions from people on all levels.
@jsw0109 Thanks, Jeff. I try to be as helpful as possible when I can. Feel free to ask anytime. But just curious, what was my previous advice? I don't remember and now you've made me curious. I bet it was cat in a shack! Where's that little guy been?
@jsw0109@cfitzgerald I'm not saying HDR is bad at all. I'm just saying that people abuse the hell out of it. They go too gruge, they oversaturate, and they treat it as a cure-all for any issue in a photo.
There was a discussion just a few days ago where someone suggested to "HDR a photo" to fix a blown out area. That kind of stuff kills me, because it shows that people don't even understand HDR! They just see it as picture makeup that hides blemishes behind layers of gaudiness. Like Homer's makeup shotgun. (Anyone?)
I really think the most important thing about creating HDR is identifying when it's appropriate, which is best decided before you even take the picture.
@gurry "I really think the most important thing about creating HDR is identifying when it's appropriate, which is best decided before you even take the picture." ---- I couldn't agree with you MORE! Well said!
@pwallis feel free to get brave and offer suggestions on ANY of my photos! I will always do the same if that's what you're looking for on some shot. i just hope Im not fishing for something to say and I can actually help. :)
Same here- after years of dance, band, and creative writing courses- I'm pretty open to any and all suggestions/critiques. I may not always agree with what is posted, but will definately take it to heart and play with the photos. I want to learn, grow, and expand. Anyone willing to offer criticism of any kind (and that even includes "this sucks!") Please, feel free to comment!
@gurry I read your comments on HDR and I agree there is a lot of bad HDR out there. I have not done any HDR myself I am taking a class that covers the subject right now. As you said there are specific applications in which HDR is a real asset. I also want to let you know that if you see one of my photos that I could have improved to please let me know. I am here to learn, not to get a bunch of feel good comments. Although I do like positive comments as well.
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I think the overdone look is meant to be more of an arty style.
I truly mean no disrepect to anyone by using the terms overcooked or overdone. They are just terms I've read when referring to images processed that way.
the higher you bump them up the greater the effect. When I first tried it I thought more is better, now I often just use it just to brighten and even out the light and shadow.
http://unifiedcolor.com/content/creating-hdr-panorama-photos-richard-sisk
So the answer seems to be that it isn't so much about the HDR itself, but the other processing that can be done at the same time.
And I hope too that I have not offended anyone by asking the question. I realize almost everything about any art is subjective and up to the artists eye.
@brumbe @hown @monika64 @cfrantz
Some HDR shots scream HDR shots because of a complete and utter lack of taste, or such a low and misinformed sense of taste that such a person could mistake the metallic tang of rust for the sweetness of chocolate.
This site and, really, the internet in general is abound with "photographers" who drag and drop their bracketed shots or single RAWs into the HDR pressure cooker, and spit out some horribly atrocious junk by maxing out all of their available options, because they can't sift through each and find a delicate balance.
When you're cooking, you add certain amounts of certain ingredients. You don't just dump everything together in pot and turn on the heat. But, hey, it's an addiction, and I know this because I used to be one of them. I thankfully had an epiphany after looking back on several HDR photos of mine, and realizing they were absolute monsters that not even a mother (or, in my case, father) could love. What have I created? I would ask myself. I don't know, but never again, I vowed.
You could get all artsy fartsy about it and say that everyone has a right to make their pictures look how they want and you would be absolutely correct. That is certainly their right. However, it seems that everyone and their mother forgot that people could be bad artists, and that the hoi polloi (mainly the internet at large) have completely forgotten how to differentiate good from bad. Instead, we celebrate everything regardless of its quality and skill. We see bright colors and sunsets, and we think pretty.
Perhaps it's the overload of bad, or the overload of information in general. There's so much to process that we simply don't have time to critique and to judge or to understand everything (and I certainly find that most people completely disregard the latter, or anything at all to do with attaining knowledge simply because of the effort and time involved in doing so).
I guess it's far easier to applaud someone for their efforts, write "stunning" on their wall, and give them a fave, because we're too lazy to educate them or to speak the truth because the explanation will require more energy than we feel worth expending. "Your photo is oversaturated, oversharpened, off balance, your whites are dull, your blacks are depthless, and this is how you fix them, this is how you improve," is what we should say.
But, no, we don't. Instead, we allow it to go on, and we accept the current standard that drops lower and lower everyday as people become lazier and lazier.
That's why HDR is bad. Because technology made it accessible. It made it a right of the masses, and not a privilege of the few. With that said, there are many who excel in HDR photography, and are truly in a class of their own. But now, because everyone is capable of clumsily performing this "artistic" process, the work of the masters now hangs in the gallery of the plebes. What's worse is that nobody notices.
And chances are nobody is going to read this anyway, because it's long and will take a couple minutes.
Tagging everyone -- @mikehamm @cfrantz @monika64 @hown @brumbe @tigerdreamer
Although I do, respectfully, reserve the right to disagree with your critique.
@brumbe Also, bam.
Kidding, but you must be weary when asking for critiques because sometimes people are not constructive. In most cases, you have to cherry pick the worthwhile commentary out of a flaming pile of subjectivity, and do your best to not be repulsed or offended by the latter. It's a cruel world, this internet planet.
Here, just for fun, below is a little reading on how one should judge. If you understand how to judge objectively, it makes it all the easier to pick out worthwhile judgments.
The text is a bit esoteric and clunky, but like the introduction says, it's essentially the foundation of aesthetics (and judgment).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Judgment#Aesthetics
Tagging you goofballs so you read it, too ;)
@shadesofgrey @beautifulthing @sdpace @brumbe
Your words are repeated here:
"I guess it's far easier to applaud someone for their efforts, write "stunning" on their wall, and give them a fave, because we're too lazy to educate them or to speak the truth because the explanation will require more energy than we feel worth expending. "Your photo is oversaturated, oversharpened, off balance, your whites are dull, your blacks are depthless, and this is how you fix them, this is how you improve," is what we should say.
But, no, we don't. Instead, we allow it to go on, and we accept the current standard that drops lower and lower everyday as people become lazier and lazier."
It needed to be said, but I was too polite (or timid) to say it, although some who have read my own comments in my albums have expressed broad agreement.
I remember getting into a 'discussion' with another 365er when I was a bit newer to the place because I happened to mention that I don't comment on all photos. I told them I thought it was disingenuous to be complimentary when I actually didn't think it was a good photo and I wasn't willing to be dishonest. They were flabbergasted and made no bones about how tacky they thought I was for holding my tongue. "But can't you make up at least ONE nice thing to say about everyone's photo?! I guess I just can't be that rude."
Oh, well. :)
What you suggested, and I request, are critiques and comments on technical and craft aspects of my work.
I might agree that people generally say nice things to be polite. I don't think that is so awful. (aesthetics)
However, I think rather than lazy, many people have not been taught how to judge most things. What is the judgement set for critiquing what makes a good photo.
As a teacher, I teach my students how to critique writing, theirs or others, according to specific traits. There are classes on how to judge wines.
Maybe all the outspoken and experienced photographers on this site could produce a list of reasonably objective traits to use when we talk about each others work.
I agree with you on a lot of points about people who are bad artists/have little experience and everyone being too nice (which really only worsens the problem of people who suck and have no experience).
A lot of the time I feel like I'm one of the kids pushing out some the crap work, not because I think it's just wonderful, but because what I saw in my head I couldn't get in the picture. I put it out there because I want to look back at some point and say "Okay....do NOT do that again." And I hope that when someone else sees it, they might give me a bit of advice of what I could have done instead (although I know I tend to set myself up for some harsh comments this way......)
I find it kind of frustrating sometimes when someone comments on my pictures "Great photo". Why is it so great?? Did you like the color? dof? concept? gimme something to work with...Especially on photos I really don't think are much better than decent. I mean I appreciate the compliment and all but it doesn't help me out much more than an ego boost.
Something about putting up my best photo of the day on here, even if it is total crap, really makes me want to improve more and prove to that crappy photo I can do better. I have to see my worst before I can produce my best kind of thing.
@beautifulthing That wasn't me that said that, was it? No, it wasn't. I don't think. What I think I said was that I always try and find one TRUE thing that I like about each photo. I'm not that great in the critiqueing department, but every now and then I get brave enough to say "hey, I think I might try this....."
But I remember having that similar conversation with you, and I like that you don't comment on everysingleshotthatgetspostedinyournewsfeed. It just means I feel extra special when you do comment on one of my shots that you like:)
That said, I do believe there is a time and a place for HDR to be easy to spot, provided it doesn't go overboard. In Photomatix, there is a preset called "Grunge"... just for fun, while processing, I click on it to see what happens. There has NEVER been an instance when that setting has produced a result that I didn't find to be an absolute eyesore! Yet I find a lot of people on 365 love to go grunge with their HDR processing. Why?
@tigerdreamer it would help to know what you mean by "makes some of them scream "HDR HDR HDR"," Are you referring to the unnatural, oversaturated colors and neon vomit appearance some HDR has? Are you referring to any HDR that you look at and know it is HDR because the lighting is impossible in the real world? (you know, the ones where you see details your naked eye didn't see because of shadows that would have hidden the details). When people go too subtle on HDR processing, it looks smooth and flat, like a normal photograph, so what is the point of HDR in those cases?
@brumbe @tigerdreamer @nikkic @pwallis @beautifulthing @janturnbull @jsw0109 @wordpixman The whole honesty thing on the internet is not going to happen. When people want critique the problem that Paula mentioned, happens. We do all want to improve, but any time I have mentioned a small, did you think to up the contrast, or straighten a horizon line, I got a not so nice retort back, which led me to believe that the person who said they wanted honesty did not. So instead of being honest, I don't comment. When I do comment, then others say the comments aren't genuine, which if I am going to take the time to say it, I will mean it. Or maybe my photos are crap and I am not the person they want to learn from. I am find with that too. But when you say you want opinions, you are going to get opinions from people on all levels.
@jsw0109 @cfitzgerald I'm not saying HDR is bad at all. I'm just saying that people abuse the hell out of it. They go too gruge, they oversaturate, and they treat it as a cure-all for any issue in a photo.
There was a discussion just a few days ago where someone suggested to "HDR a photo" to fix a blown out area. That kind of stuff kills me, because it shows that people don't even understand HDR! They just see it as picture makeup that hides blemishes behind layers of gaudiness. Like Homer's makeup shotgun. (Anyone?)
I really think the most important thing about creating HDR is identifying when it's appropriate, which is best decided before you even take the picture.