i was taking street photos today for the one night stand challenge... as it happened, there was a thing on at the square on mental health... they had all these wonderfully colourful buttons pinned to a wall, each expressing a different mood (most of them, sadly, negative)... folks were invited to wonder around and pick whichever buttons appealed to them... as many as they liked... i took several photos... no one seemed to mind... i was not the only one with a camera... there was someone there with a tv camera (and they were filming me taking pictures - go figure!)...
anyway... one of the pictures i caught was of a young man on his own picking out the "anxious" button... he really did look anxious... the photo is quite compelling to me, but i am very hesitant to post here or on flickr... chances of it being seen by the young man, or anyone who knows him are of course extremely small, but somehow, it just feels wrong...
@northy I'm not really sure. I tried street photography one time in Portland Oregon on Max (light rail). I was taking a photo of a guy that had just got off and was on the sidewalk. Another guy on Max took his phone camera and pointed it right at me and kept it there for a while. I guess he was trying to make a point. I never posted that photo because it made me feel kind of weird!
Does anyone here even know what the legal issues of posting street photography shots on a public forum are? Can a photographer get in trouble for doing so without consent? Lets say a photographer takes a candid shot of a couple kissing and post's it here. The guys wife see's it and realizes that isn't her in the picture, but Betty Lou the babbysitter sticking her tongue down Harry's throat! All hell breaks out. Betty gets publically humiliated. The wife files for divorce and takes hubby for everything owns. Can all three parties then sue the photographer for ruining their lives? I have to wonder where the law stands on this.
Jenn - yep, "up" was the only really positive one... altho' there was "calm" and "okay"...
Cromwell - gosh, i thought i was the only one who angsted about this kinda stuff! there was a discussion thread here maybe a couple months ago on this very point... i think the law varied from place to place... and yes, in some cases, there did seem to be legal issues... on the other hand, in downtown toronto, the news networks are everywhere... and i've gotta figure that anyone at yonge&dundas square, or nathan phillips square are fair game... i just checked out the reporting of the thing i happened upon and there are a number of people in the pictures... that said, most are pretty much unrecognizable (other than the event organizers)... (and there are no pictures of me ;p)
Laws seem to differ from country to country but generally speaking it seems that if you are in a public place there is an expectation that you could be recorded with out your express consent but by placing yourself in that situation, you are giving your consent.....YMMV.
I know that the law is different from place to place. Also, some public forums and photo competitions require that you have a consent letter signed from the subjects of your photo. I hate photographing people, but when I do, I usually just walk up to them and ask them if it would be ok to share a photo on a forum. It is unlikely that the person would ever find it, however if I was the 'anxious' guy, I know from personal experience that I wouldn't want it publicised. There is also the point that Shades of Grey made, that if it was a public place, maybe he wanted to be seen. Its up to your discretion at the end of the day.
I think that the fact that you feel uncomfortable posting it is the important thing. Something about the expression, attitude and scene has given you that feeling. Go with it, and don't post the picture.
somewhere a million years ago i went to school with someone who became a journalist, and then a lawyer... perhaps i will dig up an email and ask her for an opinion ;p
the two places i mentioned above are perpetually crawling with cameras (tourists, students, etc) and tv cameras (either for specific stories or just "person in the street" interviews)... it wouldn't surprise me in the least if i'm a dot on many photos all over facebook posted by people i don't know and never met... ;p
with the prevalence of cellphone cameras, i think one pretty much has to to rely on the practical obscurity afforded by the fact that there are gazillions of photos out there and the chances of someone recognizing you in a photo where you don't belong is likely very small...
i've never asked for consent to take or post a photo... as far as i know, i was only "caught" once, and that was by someone who clearly wanted her photo taken (she posed with a huge smile on her face!)...
@cromwell as an aside, not too long ago i read a murder mystery where a photographer was targetted because she inadvertantly took a picture of the murder victim and the murderer - only they weren't supposed to have known one another... however, i try to avoid letting myself become too neurotic about these things ;p
The laws definitely vary from country to country, here in Canada you can generally take photos of strangers in public as long as there is no reasonable expectation of privacy so the couple in the restaurant would be fair game but the person you can see in a house through a picture window would not. Also, if the photo is to be sold you would need a model release if the person is the focus of the shot.
@northy I worry about that too, which is why I tend to keep my street photography focused on multiples rather than an individual (unless I have permission). I know that if I came across my a street photo of myself on some forum I would feel uncomfortable and a little perturbed (not if it was a dot or in the crowd but specifically focus in on me)
@cromwell that is quite a scenario! That would be interesting to know the true legalities of it. I wouldn't think actually taking the photograph would be a problem but maybe posting it on the internet maybe.
Saw a street photography exhibit. One of the photographers waited 20 years to publish one of his series to give them annonimity.
Got caught in someone elses lens twice yesterday. A group of tourists with Canons, which is what I have. And a young photographer when I was goofing off with my Ipod as we were heading to the car. He scrambled off quickly when I spotted him, but I just laughed. Realized I brought that on myself for being goofy. Be sure to let me know if that photp surfaces!
Been out ice skating and have crossed the DOF of a lot of parents taking pictures of their kids on ice, I don't really want to see a picture of me, but if that is the way it is, then so be it. MPPOV.
@cheribug Interesting, I've have stopped at several of my usual spots for sunset, Mt Rainier, water, et al, and there have been several people that doing the same thing. Haven't come across a 365er yet, unless planned in advance.
@byrdlip yeah... i almost always avoid taking photos of kids...
@swguevin - checked the net for coverage of the event and i'm not in any of the photos or videos that i happened upon... hardly any of the photos showed faces... i have a couple that don't show faces either - i'll likely post one to flickr... just because the wall of buttons was so dang colourful!
@cheribug - hee hee... i always wonder about that... last week when i was taking street photos someone actually had a tripod set up... she looked like a student... i kept wondering what she was focussing on and why ;p
I take some street shots and some candids and I love them. I have some great ones that I dont feel I can put up here, and one that I did put up and then took down for privacy reasons (@cromwell will know the one I'm talking about).
I dont know the legalities, I do know I am inspired by @rich57's photos and he has a lot of candid strangers.
I personally draw the line at putting up candids of children or people in a weakened or personal position, this is perhaps where the guy choosing the 'anxious' button would fall.
I dont feel bad about taking these sort of photos but I do wonder about the whole publishing issue.
I ask myself "if this were me in this photo (or my child/mother etc) how would I feel if the world could see it? "
I too am curious about the legalities but it would be different everywhere.
I inadvertently took some 'street shots' of a young man earlier this year who was doing some strange things in the river next to my workplace. On the way to work the next morning I heard on the radio that a young man had drowned in the river around 10minutes after I'd taken the photos. It was the same person and was a huge shock for me. I didn't post any of those photos here or anywhere else as I was quite torn about whether it was appropriate to or not. He was recognisable in the photos so I decided not to use any of them.
With your situation, it depends on how recognisable the person is. Can you edit in a way to focus on the buttons as opposed to the person?
You should not feel guilty at all. If he does see it by any remote chance, you can remove it at his request. Since you were in an open space at a public event and he knew that there were cameras, and the photo does not exploit them then you should have no worries.
@aleksandra i remember reading your discussion thread when this happened... it must have been a horrible feeling for you to know that you were probably the last to see him... i can well understand your decision not to post those photos... as for the photo i have - yes - his face is resonably clear, and no i can't easily change the focus... it really is a nothing shot without him in it... i did just post a couple photos to flickr where you really can't see faces - just get a general sense of the lovely colours of the buttons on the wall and the general interest...
@monika64 i think i know what you mean... altho' i'm starting to wonder if my discomfort in being in front of a camera is causing me to make assumptions about others... i delayed posting my photo from last thursday to get consent from the subject (someone i work with)... i was a bit nervous because i know i would be uncomfortable with having my photo posted like that... but she thought the photo was great and had no problem with me posting it (she really isn't recognizable in the shot, tho')...
@aleksandra I do remember your story, it was quite impactful. I was always curious about if you were you able to get the photos to the family or was it simply not appropriate?
Great topic @northy Northy! I did my street shot today too! I wish I had something intelligent to say about the subject! I agree with @brumbe Paula but what about children? There must be some law to prevent creeps from hanging out in playgrounds with there camera!
Personally I would have no problem posting the photo, street photography is all about creating responses and emotions from the viewer whether they be good or bad.
In the UK then anyone in a public place is fair game, people on private property are also fair game as long as you are stood in a public place as well.
@cromwell That example is pretty ridiculous, the only people who ruined life's in that situation would be the one's having the affair NOT the photographer!
Really interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up.
I love street photography and take photos all the time of random people. My photography teacher informed us that it 's OK to take photos of anyone - even OK to take a photo of someone sitting on his door step in front of his own house but it's illegal to publish them.
(off topic: had several occasions where I would take a photo of a pretty tree in front of a house and an annoyed owner will come to ask why I take photos of his/her house).
I do occasionally post a photo but still feel quite uncomfortable of the fact that I don't have the person's permission.
One addition to my previous reply since the laws cited apply to individuals or photographers taking shots of everyday scenes for artistic purposes. Taking shots that are considered "newsworthy" and submitting those shots to a news agency, even for profit, is protected under the Freedom of the Press clause in the First Amendment. No model release is needed to submit a newsworthy photo to a news agency. (Laws regarding trespassing and "expectations of privacy" still apply.)
@orangecrush at work we are doing a report on city rec centers and I am photographing many of them. I have a rule that if they are not with me, I can shoot them from behind so you cannot see faces. If they are playing on a team I will step back and get a group or field shot. But for my job task having an empty playground defeats my purpose.
Once in Italy I took a picture of a young man half asleep on church steps, his dog beside him, along with a cup for coins. A man I hadn't seen stepped up and said, "Great, you just took a picture of a homeless kid to show your friends. How picturesque. I bet he'd be really flattered to know strangers were looking at his picture." I felt so bad I crossed the street and put money in his cup and deleted the photo. I knew I'd never feel good about it.
@38mm@cromwell i think it's important to distinguish between what's right and what's legal... truly, north america, and the US in particular, it seems, is hugely litigious... so, yeah, i can see that kind of lawsuit cropping up... which doesn't necessarily mean that the photographer would lose - but it would be hugely expensive and a major pain in the a$$ to fight... this environment also creates a context to stifle the type of creativity that requires risk-taking - 'cos the cost of risk management is so stinking huge... and then the fear of risk breeds on itself, to the point where everyone gets afraid to try new things, even if the consequences of failure are not likely to be all that great... (ok - stepping off that particular soapbox now!)...
@orangecrush i don't know if there is a law about taking pictures around the school yard or not, but i'd like to think it would be treated as a threat unless proven otherwise...
@jantan indeed Jan, it is clearly a complex issue... i'm really glad i asked the question...
i haven't read the info in the link posted by Ron yet, but i have to think that there is a difference between what is legal, and what is morally / ethically right... and while the law may attempt to put things in black and white (although even that is debatable), i think that, rightly or wrongly, moral compasses may vary...
i would personally not want to cause anyone pain by taking their picture... but of course for the most part, i'm going by my subjective view as to what might or might not cause pain... which of course flies in opposition to Ron's point about freedom of the press... it sounds as tho' taking a random picture of someone crying in the street would be wrong but taking a picture of someone crying in the street because they lost everything in a house fire could be deemed as newsworthy, and therefore protected under the law...
Mary (@catwoman2) - i hear what you are saying... but at some level i wonder if raising awareness of the ills of society (which taking such a photo and sharing it could be said to do) has some sort of value... i don't know...
regardless... i want to say thank you to everyone for posting in response to this thread... even if there is no clear answer, i think having the conversation is a good thing...
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I wouldn't worry, just be vague with the tags.
Mary - yeah, that would make me feel weird too...
Jenn - yep, "up" was the only really positive one... altho' there was "calm" and "okay"...
Cromwell - gosh, i thought i was the only one who angsted about this kinda stuff! there was a discussion thread here maybe a couple months ago on this very point... i think the law varied from place to place... and yes, in some cases, there did seem to be legal issues... on the other hand, in downtown toronto, the news networks are everywhere... and i've gotta figure that anyone at yonge&dundas square, or nathan phillips square are fair game... i just checked out the reporting of the thing i happened upon and there are a number of people in the pictures... that said, most are pretty much unrecognizable (other than the event organizers)... (and there are no pictures of me ;p)
Laws seem to differ from country to country but generally speaking it seems that if you are in a public place there is an expectation that you could be recorded with out your express consent but by placing yourself in that situation, you are giving your consent.....YMMV.
somewhere a million years ago i went to school with someone who became a journalist, and then a lawyer... perhaps i will dig up an email and ask her for an opinion ;p
the two places i mentioned above are perpetually crawling with cameras (tourists, students, etc) and tv cameras (either for specific stories or just "person in the street" interviews)... it wouldn't surprise me in the least if i'm a dot on many photos all over facebook posted by people i don't know and never met... ;p
with the prevalence of cellphone cameras, i think one pretty much has to to rely on the practical obscurity afforded by the fact that there are gazillions of photos out there and the chances of someone recognizing you in a photo where you don't belong is likely very small...
i've never asked for consent to take or post a photo... as far as i know, i was only "caught" once, and that was by someone who clearly wanted her photo taken (she posed with a huge smile on her face!)...
@cromwell as an aside, not too long ago i read a murder mystery where a photographer was targetted because she inadvertantly took a picture of the murder victim and the murderer - only they weren't supposed to have known one another... however, i try to avoid letting myself become too neurotic about these things ;p
@cromwell that is quite a scenario! That would be interesting to know the true legalities of it. I wouldn't think actually taking the photograph would be a problem but maybe posting it on the internet maybe.
Got caught in someone elses lens twice yesterday. A group of tourists with Canons, which is what I have. And a young photographer when I was goofing off with my Ipod as we were heading to the car. He scrambled off quickly when I spotted him, but I just laughed. Realized I brought that on myself for being goofy. Be sure to let me know if that photp surfaces!
@swguevin - checked the net for coverage of the event and i'm not in any of the photos or videos that i happened upon... hardly any of the photos showed faces... i have a couple that don't show faces either - i'll likely post one to flickr... just because the wall of buttons was so dang colourful!
@cheribug - hee hee... i always wonder about that... last week when i was taking street photos someone actually had a tripod set up... she looked like a student... i kept wondering what she was focussing on and why ;p
I dont know the legalities, I do know I am inspired by @rich57's photos and he has a lot of candid strangers.
I personally draw the line at putting up candids of children or people in a weakened or personal position, this is perhaps where the guy choosing the 'anxious' button would fall.
I dont feel bad about taking these sort of photos but I do wonder about the whole publishing issue.
I ask myself "if this were me in this photo (or my child/mother etc) how would I feel if the world could see it? "
I too am curious about the legalities but it would be different everywhere.
With your situation, it depends on how recognisable the person is. Can you edit in a way to focus on the buttons as opposed to the person?
In the UK then anyone in a public place is fair game, people on private property are also fair game as long as you are stood in a public place as well.
@cromwell That example is pretty ridiculous, the only people who ruined life's in that situation would be the one's having the affair NOT the photographer!
I love street photography and take photos all the time of random people. My photography teacher informed us that it 's OK to take photos of anyone - even OK to take a photo of someone sitting on his door step in front of his own house but it's illegal to publish them.
(off topic: had several occasions where I would take a photo of a pretty tree in front of a house and an annoyed owner will come to ask why I take photos of his/her house).
I do occasionally post a photo but still feel quite uncomfortable of the fact that I don't have the person's permission.
http://www.pixiq.com/article/street-photography-and-the-law
Note that US courts have interpreted "profiting from your work" to include posting photos in a fashion that could be construed as advertising.
@jantan indeed Jan, it is clearly a complex issue... i'm really glad i asked the question...
i haven't read the info in the link posted by Ron yet, but i have to think that there is a difference between what is legal, and what is morally / ethically right... and while the law may attempt to put things in black and white (although even that is debatable), i think that, rightly or wrongly, moral compasses may vary...
i would personally not want to cause anyone pain by taking their picture... but of course for the most part, i'm going by my subjective view as to what might or might not cause pain... which of course flies in opposition to Ron's point about freedom of the press... it sounds as tho' taking a random picture of someone crying in the street would be wrong but taking a picture of someone crying in the street because they lost everything in a house fire could be deemed as newsworthy, and therefore protected under the law...
Mary (@catwoman2) - i hear what you are saying... but at some level i wonder if raising awareness of the ills of society (which taking such a photo and sharing it could be said to do) has some sort of value... i don't know...
regardless... i want to say thank you to everyone for posting in response to this thread... even if there is no clear answer, i think having the conversation is a good thing...
@windmill @kannafoot @cromwell @cromwell @catwoman2