First off, Im using a Canon xsi. As Im starting to learn more about my camera Im starting to get a little frustrated with the grain Im getting at ISO 800- which I need in almost all areas of my house most of the time during the day. I'm mostly photographing my kids so I need to keep my shutter around 80 or so at the slowest I would think. My next stop is 60 which is impossible to keep them clear. I mostly use a 50mm lens so i can keep my aperature a little bigger. However, Im still experiencing tons of grain on shots that otherwise seem pretty bright. Does anyone have any tricks on reducing this other than a flash fill? I dont ever have my external flash just laying around with my camera and like I said, Im mostly photographing my kids which dont wait for me to find it and put it on!
you said your aperture is pretty wide open....what f-stop are you using exactly? What you are seeing is not "grain," it is digital noise. If you regularly take photos indoors in low light, you will either need to use a flash or find a camera with lower noise at high ISO. Do you have the "High ISO Noise Reduction" turned to "on" on your camera? I think by default it is off. Not all cameras have this, but I checked and yours does. You might also be able to find more info by googling the correct term "digital noise" instead of "grain." Grain will most likely be referring to film on the internet. :)
@mikehamm@sdpace well I do now! Thanks for the tip. Im going to try that out and see if I get better results. I was so disappointed with my picture from today because of the grain so you guys might have just made my day!
Be aware with NR turned on, your pictures "may" appear ever so slightly softer. Not blurry, by any means, but maybe not quite as tack sharp as you might be used to seeing.
That camera definitely has issues with digital noise with an ISO of 800 or more. But you just need to learn to find the sweet spot on that camera with your exposure and you can get pictures without grain.
I took a look at your pictures - the ones that you have posted, did you do any editing to them? The biggest problem with the xsi (I have this camera) and if you underexpose at an ISO 800 or more, you are going to see a lot of noise. Even more so if you edit your photos (more if you don't shoot in RAW)
Your kids are really little and young, so I would never let that shutter speed drop below 125 or you'll risk a lot of blur. If you've got kids that will sit and hold still, then 60 - 80 is not so bad. But the key is to get the exposure down really good when shooting at 800 or higher.
I agree with Stacy - you'll need to use flash (do you have an external flash? You can bounce the light)
Here's a picture I took of my son at ISO 1600 with the Canon Xsi. I did not adjust exposure or anything and did not use flash (but I did turn on the light over head and I opened up the window blinds behind me to let 5pm light into the house since he was in the perfect spot to let that light in on him. Since you have the 50mm, you can open that bad boy all the way up to 1.8 to let in as much light as you can. This was shot at 1.8 and I think it was with my 50mm (Maybe 85, but I think 50mm) So, if your in camera noise reduction isn't set (I assume you shoot Jpeg and not RAW) then make sure it's set. Normally it's already set in camera out of the box) If you shoot RAW, then you adjust the noise reduction yourself in ACR.
Underexposure bad for noise, proper exposure at the ISO will be much less noise, sometimes I over expose a tad when using such a high ISO.
There is a free noise reduction program for Windows (but I can't find one for MAC) google it, it's called Free Community noiseware and when I used to have a windows based computer, I loved it when I needed it.
I did not use any noise reduction software in this photo.
I know my old Nikon D50 was quite grainy at 1600. My d90 is much better. Also I think it depends on the light, and how graininess mixes in with it. In any event, I could never shot this with my d50. It's 3200 iso, but the graininess mixes in with the light nicely
@bobg - do you think that is ISO noise, or jpg artifacts from compressing the image for web use? I ask because I don't see it as much in the foreground, but mostly in the solids in the background.
@jenp Thanks. how do you find that "sweet spot" you mentioned? once you can't move your shutter because your shot will be underexposed and your iso is set and your aperture is open, where else can you go without a flash? i do have an external flash but as I mentioned, it's often times nowhere near my camera when I need it.
I always underexpose a little because I feel like once the detail is lost if you overexpose, you can't get that back. At least I can lighten up shadows if necessary. I do shoot in JPEG though. Should I start learning about RAW? (Im taking baby steps. I started this project knowing absolutely nothing so Im getting there. ;) ) Ive been reading a lot about that too, RAW opening more opportunities for editing but at this point my editing is so minimal I feel like it hasn't been necessary.
Are there tricks to learning exposure and how to work it to your advantage? Your shot is so clear, doesn't look like what I would think mine would look like at ISO 1600. I did find the setting @sdpace mentioned though so I've gone ahead and changed it. Hopefully I'll get a chance to play with it now and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for all your help. sorry so many questions!
@katiebrenkert I had that camera and was frustrated with the same issue for longest time (3 months :-)) before I went ahead and bought classic 5d for this exact same purpose, for getting better quality at higher iso. It did help a bit with the full fame and all, but I still wasn't getting good images indoors with my young kids (2 and 8). So, I decided to get external flash - 430 ex ii. I know you already said you had flash but couldn't use it at times, but unfortunately that's the only thing that brought the best change for good in my indoor photos of my kids. As you said, there is no where to go after 1.8 aperture, 80 shutter speed and iso 800-1600 except adding more light. I felt like I needed to reply to this discussion because I could have asked this same question before I got my flash. I was using the same camera, surprisingly exact same settings with my 50mm and trying to do the same things - get better pictures of my kids in low light. Try to make use of your external flash as much as possible.
Also, I agree with whoever said it only gets worse if you try to fix the exposure in post processing. Bumping up exposure by more than 1 or 2 stops only seems to make it worse, also every time you use screen mode.
If you have photoshop(comes with camera raw), lightroom or any other raw processing software, I highly highly recommend to shoot in raw. I too was intimidated to learn shooting in raw at first, but it's not that hard. The control you have on your picture though is amazing. For your issue, imagine being able to change your white balance to remove color cast, bumping up exposure, adding fill light etc. etc.
@katiebrenkert - definitely put the speedlite on your camera when you know shooting in low light will be an issue. Because the only way you'll get more light in when you are already wide open and at 1600, is to have extra light. When I was learning my speedlite, I just left it on the camera. If I needed it, it was there. If I didn't, I just didn't turn it on.
As for over exposing, I only over expose by a stop, maybe 2, just depending on the circumstances of the light around me. I also rely heavily on my histogram (once I get the exposure right, I don't worry so much from there unless my lighting changes) So when I over expose a little, I just make sure that I don't blow any highlights so I don't loose any detail. It really does help with the noise.
Definitely take the time to learn RAW. It seems intimidating, but it really isn't. I could have kicked myself for how long I waited to actually shoot in RAW. If you want to learn it, I'm happy to exchange email with you and walk you through it. When you do global edits on a jpeg, it's easy to start to destroy the picture (which can introduce even more noise to your picture) but if you do your global adjustments in RAW, you are really saving your picture and not doing much damage to it at all. Say you underexpose your picture, you can just use the slider in RAW to adjust the exposure. BUT if you do that too much to a jpeg, it looks funky. Same with over exposing, you can fix it in raw with just a slider. WB is the easiest thing to correct in RAW, but it's very difficult to fix WB on a jpeg.
I know that's a lot of info, but really, I'd be happy to show you how to process your RAW files.
@jenp Thanks jennifer. I will put the speedlight on in the house. I have just found it cumbersome to this point because I never shoot my kids the same way two times in a row. To get the light to bounce off the ceiling Im always having to stop and rotate the thing. got any tips for that too? ;)
I will start shooting some in RAW. I'de love for you to walk me through it if you have time. Is it that much different? I WAS only editing in iphoto, changing colors, exp, saturation, etc, howeverI have recently starting using photoshop actions. That's the extent of my edits now. Photoshop can read RAW photos correct? Thanks so much for all of your help!
Also, what light bulbs do you have in your house? It may sound a bit silly, but I changed all of my 60 watt bulbs with 100 watt (energy efficient) bulbs which definitely helped with my indoor photos.
@katiebrenkert I have the same issue with my camera! Look at @onarom's comparison, it really does show the difference between RAW and JPEG. I've started shooting in the RAW+JPEG setting on my camera. It's amazing how much recovery Photoshop can do on RAW pictures!
@onarom Thanks for the lightbulb tip. We are using energy efficient bulbs but maybe I'll rearrange and up the wattage where I can. I just started this week shooting a few RAW images. There is definitely a difference! Thanks for the comparison. @ashpanelli I checked out the comparison and shot a few images in RAW this week. I noticed a difference as well. I just have to learn how to not take a million shots and how to edit them in photoshop instead of iPhoto! @jenp@ashpanelli@onarom -so I like the way the RAW image doesnt lose some of the detail the way the JPEG does and I especially like how if a shot is overexposed, you can recover some of the detail. Now, how do I open RAW images in photoshop. it opens them as a JPEG unless I select camera raw, and then it opens in some other little window. Am I doing it right?
@katiebrenkert - You need to set your camera to shoot RAW. Do you have it set up right now to shoot Jpeg or Jpeg + Raw? In your camera, go to menu and choose "qaulity" from your menu about your camera (should be the first menu item wall to pop up) It will give you all the jpeg qualities, then the Jpeg + Raw and just RAW.
are you working in PS or LR (Sorry, checking in really quick, so don't have the chance to go back and read/check) also your camera should have come with a disk that will also open and process raw images.
If in PS, when you open a raw, it should automatically open up in ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) or whatever RAW program you have. Just do a quicky photo shoot only in RAW for a few minutes (Don't rely on jpeg at all, just set to RAW) when the ACR opens, you can do your global adjustments there - WB is super easy to tweak without damaging your file. You can adjust exposure, add light, add blacks, bump contrast. Then there will be icons to the middle top right, go to the 3rd tab over and at the bottom 3rd, you will see a luminosity slider. Enlarge your photo to 100% and you will see the natural grain of a RAW uncompressed shot, you'll want to slide your slider just until that grain goes away, but don't over do the luminosity slider or it will make your pictures softer. This is generally how i edit my raw, then I send them into PS to do any other edits, which will change them over to jpegs.
I know that was a quick one! if it doesn't make sense, let me know and I will help you through it. I'm off to get the kids to school. After you get used to RAW, you will really love it! I can't beleive I didn't do it sooner than I did!
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I took a look at your pictures - the ones that you have posted, did you do any editing to them? The biggest problem with the xsi (I have this camera) and if you underexpose at an ISO 800 or more, you are going to see a lot of noise. Even more so if you edit your photos (more if you don't shoot in RAW)
Your kids are really little and young, so I would never let that shutter speed drop below 125 or you'll risk a lot of blur. If you've got kids that will sit and hold still, then 60 - 80 is not so bad. But the key is to get the exposure down really good when shooting at 800 or higher.
I agree with Stacy - you'll need to use flash (do you have an external flash? You can bounce the light)
Here's a picture I took of my son at ISO 1600 with the Canon Xsi. I did not adjust exposure or anything and did not use flash (but I did turn on the light over head and I opened up the window blinds behind me to let 5pm light into the house since he was in the perfect spot to let that light in on him. Since you have the 50mm, you can open that bad boy all the way up to 1.8 to let in as much light as you can. This was shot at 1.8 and I think it was with my 50mm (Maybe 85, but I think 50mm) So, if your in camera noise reduction isn't set (I assume you shoot Jpeg and not RAW) then make sure it's set. Normally it's already set in camera out of the box) If you shoot RAW, then you adjust the noise reduction yourself in ACR.
Underexposure bad for noise, proper exposure at the ISO will be much less noise, sometimes I over expose a tad when using such a high ISO.
There is a free noise reduction program for Windows (but I can't find one for MAC) google it, it's called Free Community noiseware and when I used to have a windows based computer, I loved it when I needed it.
I did not use any noise reduction software in this photo.
ISO 1600, SS 60 F1.8
I always underexpose a little because I feel like once the detail is lost if you overexpose, you can't get that back. At least I can lighten up shadows if necessary. I do shoot in JPEG though. Should I start learning about RAW? (Im taking baby steps. I started this project knowing absolutely nothing so Im getting there. ;) ) Ive been reading a lot about that too, RAW opening more opportunities for editing but at this point my editing is so minimal I feel like it hasn't been necessary.
Are there tricks to learning exposure and how to work it to your advantage? Your shot is so clear, doesn't look like what I would think mine would look like at ISO 1600. I did find the setting @sdpace mentioned though so I've gone ahead and changed it. Hopefully I'll get a chance to play with it now and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for all your help. sorry so many questions!
Also, I agree with whoever said it only gets worse if you try to fix the exposure in post processing. Bumping up exposure by more than 1 or 2 stops only seems to make it worse, also every time you use screen mode.
If you have photoshop(comes with camera raw), lightroom or any other raw processing software, I highly highly recommend to shoot in raw. I too was intimidated to learn shooting in raw at first, but it's not that hard. The control you have on your picture though is amazing. For your issue, imagine being able to change your white balance to remove color cast, bumping up exposure, adding fill light etc. etc.
As for over exposing, I only over expose by a stop, maybe 2, just depending on the circumstances of the light around me. I also rely heavily on my histogram (once I get the exposure right, I don't worry so much from there unless my lighting changes) So when I over expose a little, I just make sure that I don't blow any highlights so I don't loose any detail. It really does help with the noise.
Definitely take the time to learn RAW. It seems intimidating, but it really isn't. I could have kicked myself for how long I waited to actually shoot in RAW. If you want to learn it, I'm happy to exchange email with you and walk you through it. When you do global edits on a jpeg, it's easy to start to destroy the picture (which can introduce even more noise to your picture) but if you do your global adjustments in RAW, you are really saving your picture and not doing much damage to it at all. Say you underexpose your picture, you can just use the slider in RAW to adjust the exposure. BUT if you do that too much to a jpeg, it looks funky. Same with over exposing, you can fix it in raw with just a slider. WB is the easiest thing to correct in RAW, but it's very difficult to fix WB on a jpeg.
I know that's a lot of info, but really, I'd be happy to show you how to process your RAW files.
I will start shooting some in RAW. I'de love for you to walk me through it if you have time. Is it that much different? I WAS only editing in iphoto, changing colors, exp, saturation, etc, howeverI have recently starting using photoshop actions. That's the extent of my edits now. Photoshop can read RAW photos correct? Thanks so much for all of your help!
Also, what light bulbs do you have in your house? It may sound a bit silly, but I changed all of my 60 watt bulbs with 100 watt (energy efficient) bulbs which definitely helped with my indoor photos.
@ashpanelli I checked out the comparison and shot a few images in RAW this week. I noticed a difference as well. I just have to learn how to not take a million shots and how to edit them in photoshop instead of iPhoto!
@jenp @ashpanelli @onarom -so I like the way the RAW image doesnt lose some of the detail the way the JPEG does and I especially like how if a shot is overexposed, you can recover some of the detail. Now, how do I open RAW images in photoshop. it opens them as a JPEG unless I select camera raw, and then it opens in some other little window. Am I doing it right?
are you working in PS or LR (Sorry, checking in really quick, so don't have the chance to go back and read/check) also your camera should have come with a disk that will also open and process raw images.
If in PS, when you open a raw, it should automatically open up in ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) or whatever RAW program you have. Just do a quicky photo shoot only in RAW for a few minutes (Don't rely on jpeg at all, just set to RAW) when the ACR opens, you can do your global adjustments there - WB is super easy to tweak without damaging your file. You can adjust exposure, add light, add blacks, bump contrast. Then there will be icons to the middle top right, go to the 3rd tab over and at the bottom 3rd, you will see a luminosity slider. Enlarge your photo to 100% and you will see the natural grain of a RAW uncompressed shot, you'll want to slide your slider just until that grain goes away, but don't over do the luminosity slider or it will make your pictures softer. This is generally how i edit my raw, then I send them into PS to do any other edits, which will change them over to jpegs.
I know that was a quick one! if it doesn't make sense, let me know and I will help you through it. I'm off to get the kids to school. After you get used to RAW, you will really love it! I can't beleive I didn't do it sooner than I did!