Being now well underway with my first year doing 365 on this site I have a few interesting observations.
Firstly the weekly official chart. I have watched this with some interest over the last few weeks and have noticed a trend. For the majority of weeks the top 20 is almost 80% made up of shots from people that a) have hundred if not thousands of followers b) are into there second or even third year of 365 c) have been contributing great photos to the site for a long long time. It also goes to say that these photos are 9 times out of 10 simply amazing and deserve the top 20 weekly achievement. But it goes without saying that if you have lots of followers and you produce a great shot you have a massivly higher chance of getting FAVs and therefore hitting the top 20 list.
Secondly I have come to the realisation that I will never likely be in this list of the top 20 photos as a) I dont have a great deal of followers b) I am average at my hobby but still enjoy it very much c) I really value all the people that follow me and post such wonderful comments and even FAV some of my shots d) I am over the moon when I do actual hit the PP pages (got 4 shots that have so far). I always find the PP and top 20 list a great source of inspiration and in cases has pushed me to better myself and my photos and try new techneques. I can say I have improved as a result of this and thanks all the people that inspire me on this site. Special thanks go to:
@grizzlysghost a master of his art @northy creates consistantly amazing shot @jonesp has done some jawdropping shots @gphelps5 my monthly word challenge brother @aleksandra a diverse super snapper
Thirdly I see a glimmer of hope for anyone just starting there 365 who are aiming to hit the top 20 list. This week two great photos hit from people who have just started this month and have done some amazing shots so far. @shuttermonster and @paula365 have infiltrated the top 20 against the odds after half a month and only a few hundred followers. CONGRATULATIONS. You give hope to all us striving to reach the dizzy hights of the top 20.
Its not always the case @brav , I hit the Top20 probably 6 or 7 times in my first year but only 2 or 3 times in my second and third years when I had twice the followers. While I now have 700 or so followers now compared to the 365 I had in Year One, I now have maybe 50 or 100 views compared to 250 to 300 views in my first year.
Its all about active followers, not numbers.
I personally have found that this site rewards me more when I take my time to comment more on others. When I don't put out, my comments and views on my shots drop away, but when I get out there and comment on a heap of others, then I get the returns.
If it is your goal to get on the PP or on the Top20, then get yourself out there and participate. This site can be exploited if the desire is there. Frogmato anyone?
I agree Jason, the numbers can be decieving, as followers either don't complete the 365, or leave the site when they are finished. They still show as floowers though. @bobfoto
Ah yes Frogmato...but that was all good fun!! It got wonderfully out of control, and is now a bit of a cult!!
Now you better go and comment on mine :)
@bobfoto totally agreed Jason. I did think when I first joined that it would be great to hit PP and Top 20 and that would be the ultimate reward. However I have actually found that getting comments off people and responding to their shots is much more furfiling. @lolanae
Eloquently put, Richard. Agree all the top 20 photos are great, and deserve the accolades. But I wonder if there are photos as good as or better out there by first year 365ers that we don't get to see because of the top 20 is full of 2nd and 3rd year people, often the same ones each week. But this is just the way it works. You can't deny the 2nd and 3rd year people the opportunity to make the top 20, as we would lose some great photographers (perhaps the best) off the site as a result. But I feel for the first year 365ers who get lots of favs who just miss out on the excitement of making the top 20 if it is full of the regulars. I don't think there is a solution, it's just the way it is! I'm in my 2nd year now, I made the top 20 once in my first year and it is great encouragement for a newbie!
@brav - spot on. I get a bigger buzz from being in the peer voted "favourite fave of the week" then reaching the PP. I still enjoy the PP and I love the attention that follows a Top20 but I still am humbled by comments from people that I respect that are taking the time to comment on my 'moments in time'
@lolanae I am sure you had one of Alison in a helmet on there - still one of my all time favourite shots!
I use top 20 for inspiration. Would love to make it on there one day so I keep trying to take better pitchers!
@bobfoto I totally agree! I have been lucky enough to get top 20 4 or 5 times and I have not quite finished my first year.
I have nearly 500 followers now but I got a lot of them from getting in the top 20 not the other way round.
Interacting as much as possible buy participating in discussions and commenting on other peoples photos and following them is really the best way to get followers and as a bonus you get the amazing support that this wonderful site offers.
Have fun with it, it is good to aim for the top 20 but really the whole project is about fun, friendship and learning :)
Hey Richard, thanks for your congratulatory post! I haven't been around long enough to observe the site politics you're referring to. But nonetheless, I'm excited to be involved with a great community of photographers like yourselves.
Wow, thanks for the shout Richard, it's you guy who choose the words, I just put the final list together and have enormous fun trying to complete them all. Glad you enjoy the challenge.
Thanks for the shout-out Richard! But I will be the FIRST to point out there are MANY others on 365 that are just as deserving (or more), and whom I idolize. I won't get all gay by pointing them out like @jase_h did, but they have constantly pushed me toward becoming a better photographer; which has always been my overriding goal. I've come a long way since starting 365, but I've still got SO much to learn; I'm certainly not a "master" ... not yet anyway! :)
I do disagree with anyone thinking this is a "popularity contest" though; it is a LOT of work to constantly push yourself to get better and to accept uncomfortable challenges, and sometimes just to interact and participate in dialogue. People here on 365 are gracious in recognizing this effort with a "follow," but don't typically dole out faves lightly.
It can be very frustrating and tormenting to worry about whether or not photos are in Top 20 or on popular page or not, and how good photos actually are. Comparisons are odious and in many way popularity contests can be as well. @bobfoto is right when he says it is not a question of how many followers you have but how active your followers are in looking at your photos, commenting and faving, if the viewer wants to support in this way. I have close to a 1000 followers but this can build individual expectations that I will be viewing or commenting on many many photos. This is humanly impossible. It is also the case that viewers can become tired of faving the same photographer and move on. There is a small group of friends who regularly comment on my photos and I appreciate this.
In my first 365 I had several photos at number 1, 2 and so forth in the Top 20, and not many followers, but I worked to build that up by commenting. I am always surprised when one of my photos is in Top 20 or Popular Page because looking there is not a priority for me. Taking photos and posting them is. I take photos of what I want but in the end I post what I want. I try to avoid self promotion including starting a plethora of threads around topics I am interested in to drive others to my photos, but organising others or campaigning for things is not an unethical activity. It can be important of course to express views and to participate in forums so others know you are about.
My all time popular photo has had 836 views, 237 comments and 125 favs. At the time I had nowhere near this many followers or was even close to following that many. Faving is discretionary and it is an indication of the level of support or connection a photo can make. 95% of those were in the first 24 hours of posting. I enjoyed the acclaim, but notwithstanding this, be careful of what you wish for. Responding to so many comments and favs by viewing and responding in return can take very many hours and is just not sustainable. Hence 365 burn out.
Since being post 365 I have had less Top 20 photos but am very grateful for the support others give me, value their comments, and believe the 365 community has encouraged and helped me to grow. I apologise that I just don't have the time or capacity to respond to all the views and comments I receive.
I like this discussion. I don't set aside the time to.spend on 365 on a regular enough basis to have developed much of a "following," so I've never made the PP page. I'm sure I have a handful of photos that might have been deserving, but I guess I have just learned that it's really not about that. I've learned a ton, and I've very much appreciated seeing so many fellow artist's photos. I've learned mostly to be content with where I am in my journey, confident in my ability to capture what I'm after, and most of all, I've learned to take my camera everywhere and to see and seize photographic opportunities wherever I am. I'm so busy taking photos I don't have time to post them! And I'm okay with all of it. I'm having fun, and that's what matters the most to keep me motivated. The comments and faves are nice validation (thanks to all - you know who you are), but those are not the main reason I keep going. I feel as though I've established a sort of kinship with many people here, and that is priceless! Here's to another fun year on 365!
Glad so many people have responded to this thread in so many different ways. @jase_h@grizzlysghost@peterdegraaff@shuttermonster I think what I have tried to say (badly) is that however this site functions it has worked in bring prople together and helped people improve which is great. I now never iam for 10000s of followers and hitting pp and top 20 but aim to shot better shots and interact.
agree totally with @bobfoto and @peterdegraaff I have many more followers nowadays, many are still active but many are also in their 2nd and 3rd years and have less time to dedicate to the site. I remember getting my first top 20 three months in to the project, I was overwhelmed, and I only had 100 or so followers, the numbers grew as did the faves and subsequently the number of T20's. now with over 800 followers, I don't have the time to comment as much and I find it more difficult for my shots to reach the top 20, but somehow it is more satisfying when they do because I know is less about popularity and being "out there" but because it is truly a good shot.
I've come to the conclusion that one needs to work hard to build a reputation through improving work, and needs to continue to work hard in order to maintain this reputation...it's an easy thing to say when you've had top 20's in the past, but I personally now take more joy out of doing well at themes and getting a few solid comments with personal feedback, I feel my hard work in year 1and year 2 has allowed me to grow enormously and whilst I still work hard at my hobby I don't let the numbers or popularity drive my activity.
@brav When i joined 365 nine months ago, I had no idea what PP or Top 20 was. I have been fortunate enough to make friends with so many talented photographers here that some of it has rubbed off, as my own work has greatly improved. I have been honored to have 8 of my images make PP and 1 made top 20. The first PP was a thrill, the top 20 made me ecstatic. But I firmly believe you have to make photographs to please yourself first. Recognition from others is the icing on the cake!
I really like this discussion, and it's definitely something that has crossed my mind each time I see the PP or the top 20.
I think the key with all of this is what kind of project you are trying to achieve. I myself am not a professional, sometimes I take terrible photos, sometimes I take pretty good photographs and sometimes I take amazing photos, it depends on what you want to look at. I personally think that pictures of my children are the cutest thing ever (as does every other person who has children) but what I also bear in mind is that an "amazing photo of my children" to me is something quite boring for those of you who have no interest in my children, but to me that is what this project is about MY YEAR, not how many views, Favs, or comments I can get! Of course it's nice to have people comment on my photos and a FAV puts a smile on my face for the whole day, but in the bigger picture I find it unimportant. I also reply to every comment I get and then return the favour by looking through the persons project and commenting back.
My most popular picture was not anywhere near the standards I can achieve photographically, it was popular only because of it's content. If it is something that captures peoples interest and imagination, then it will inevitably achieve a higher click through ratio than something only "you" find interesting.
So my overall feeling on it all is that: Yes there will always be a selection of the same faces in the Top 20 with the odd intruder, but that's what these people spend their lives doing, it's their work or their unrivalled passion. I myself will never get there as this is not my work, so therefore I do not have the time to invest on such a scale. I'm happy with that, I love looking at all of the photos on here from the average Jo, with a point and shoot who can barely point it in the right direction, and have 2 followers, right through to the people who spend every day making a living out of their incredible artistic talents, and have 700 followers.
This site just wouldn't be the same if it wasn't for all of us doing our bit :-)
Great thread with some very good points and well worth the late night read. Kudos to all.
@tammeray - and ummm no, close but no cigar, there was a photo before that one, that brought me shame, elation, notoriety, acclaim and giggly happiness.
Even though I've been in the weekly Top 20 fairly regularly for a long time, it has never been my goal nor having almost 1000 followers. Rather I just try to push myself each day to keep geting better at my photography. And I've always said for every person who does make the Top 20, including myself, there are many others out there with pics just as good or even better, that for one reason or another, don't get the exposure to have a chance to accumulate the necessary favs. So T20 and PP are fun for a bit but mostly BS. Really the greatest fun I have of all, why I'm still doing this site, is chatting with my friends on each others pics and learning so much from them and discovering all the amazing talent out there.
@michaelelliott - I will say I get a little surprised when I don't see a shot of NYC in the Top20. I often think about sending you an SOS asking if everything is okay. Your shots of an amazing city has made me thing that perhaps one day I should visit New York.
I totally agree to the points made by@gemtumble. This project shows so many great pieces of photography, and I try to let myself be inspired . But 365 as it says is a documentary of my daily life and the things that are important in it, the things and people I may encounter every day.
Wonderful shots is one thing but I live in a place with no remarkable landscapes, big cities or beautiful beaches and my camera can only try to catch what comes my way
I have been lucky enough to get on the PP page a few times, but never in the Top 20, but that's OK, because when it happens it will feel brilliant. But I do often have to remember that it's not a personality contest, and something I think I wish I had more followers, or at least the same amount as I follow, but you could have tons of followers that don't comment, or look at your photo.
I will just continue to take photos everyday and get better at what I love doing the most.
@bobfoto - I will do a frogman shot one day - another dream !
@michaelelliott to quote "Even though I've been in the weekly Top 20 fairly regularly for a long time, it has never been my goal nor having almost 1000 followers. Rather I just try to push myself each day to keep geting better at my photography. And I've always said for every person who does make the Top 20, including myself, there are many others out there with pics just as good or even better, that for one reason or another, don't get the exposure to have a chance to accumulate the necessary favs. So T20 and PP are fun for a bit but mostly BS. Really the greatest fun I have of all, why I'm still doing this site, is chatting with my friends on each others pics and learning so much from them and discovering all the amazing talent out there. "
Bravo for you for saying this!
@jonesp I totally agree... making the favorite fav of someone else thread is a big deal! :)
I joined this group almost a year ago and have learned so much--which is why I am here. When I began I would just look for people who had shots I liked and followed them. I follow about 67 people and have 99 followers (many of who are no longer posting). I have had one shot make the top 20 and I was shocked--yet quite pleased.
I appreciate views and comments on my shots--favs are a bonus and getting on the popular page is exciting. I LOVE browsing the popular page and am always amazed at the talent on the top 20. I just say a huge congratulations to those who make the top 20--their shots always inspire me. Haven't a clue how they do what they do, but if I just learn a little bit more throughout this project IT HAS BEEN WORTH IT.
And the best part of all is how willing everyone here is to share their knowledge.
Thanks for the mention Richard, I'm truly humbled to be included amongst such talented photographers in your initial post.
In terms of the whole PP and T20 thing... I had a little success on that front in my first year and similarly to what others have already said, I gained many followers from that exposure. However, having a lot of followers doesn't guarantee lots of favs or T20 status. Pushing yourself harder each day and participating in the community aspect seem to be the key factors to that.
I love the inspiration that I get from spending too many hours everyday on 365, and it is wonderful to make friendships with people from all over the world that share the same passion...(and who don't think its weird that I take my camera pretty much everywhere...)
It's fascinating being a newbie here. What an enlightening discussion.
I can only assume that with each new year the number of participants multiplies, and so the network gets spread thinner...
I know that I for one am certainly not coming in with expectations of grandeur. It's just too big a place, with a vast wealth of talent. I'm an amateur. I'm here to make a personally memorable calendar that I can look back on with pride as testimony to a year of learning and risk-taking.
I'm just grateful that there are so many people here who take the time to support one another--and that you embrace new people so unresentfully.
@grizzlysghost totally agree. I am actually staggered by how much my shots have improved since starting on here and a lot of that is to do with looking at other peoples shots and getting inspiration. I am actually thinking up concepts on my own now too which is making me happy.
@brav - yep and it's funny at first of year massive newbies and in short order it shakes out and you can see who sticks. I have so many "old" friends and some "new" ones too.
I didn't even know there was a top 20 list, shows how much I pay attention. lol. I did a 365 last year, but used flickr, I had no idea this site existed. So happy I found it.
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Its all about active followers, not numbers.
I personally have found that this site rewards me more when I take my time to comment more on others. When I don't put out, my comments and views on my shots drop away, but when I get out there and comment on a heap of others, then I get the returns.
If it is your goal to get on the PP or on the Top20, then get yourself out there and participate. This site can be exploited if the desire is there. Frogmato anyone?
I do agree with @bobfoto that the more you put in, the more you get out.
@bobfoto
Ah yes Frogmato...but that was all good fun!! It got wonderfully out of control, and is now a bit of a cult!!
Now you better go and comment on mine :)
I use top 20 for inspiration. Would love to make it on there one day so I keep trying to take better pitchers!
I have nearly 500 followers now but I got a lot of them from getting in the top 20 not the other way round.
Interacting as much as possible buy participating in discussions and commenting on other peoples photos and following them is really the best way to get followers and as a bonus you get the amazing support that this wonderful site offers.
Have fun with it, it is good to aim for the top 20 but really the whole project is about fun, friendship and learning :)
I think frogs hate me........
Hey Richard, thanks for your congratulatory post! I haven't been around long enough to observe the site politics you're referring to. But nonetheless, I'm excited to be involved with a great community of photographers like yourselves.
@corymbia - That was my weekly theme win. It actually didn't make Top 20 the week it was up. hehe
@bobfoto
I do disagree with anyone thinking this is a "popularity contest" though; it is a LOT of work to constantly push yourself to get better and to accept uncomfortable challenges, and sometimes just to interact and participate in dialogue. People here on 365 are gracious in recognizing this effort with a "follow," but don't typically dole out faves lightly.
It can be very frustrating and tormenting to worry about whether or not photos are in Top 20 or on popular page or not, and how good photos actually are. Comparisons are odious and in many way popularity contests can be as well. @bobfoto is right when he says it is not a question of how many followers you have but how active your followers are in looking at your photos, commenting and faving, if the viewer wants to support in this way. I have close to a 1000 followers but this can build individual expectations that I will be viewing or commenting on many many photos. This is humanly impossible. It is also the case that viewers can become tired of faving the same photographer and move on. There is a small group of friends who regularly comment on my photos and I appreciate this.
In my first 365 I had several photos at number 1, 2 and so forth in the Top 20, and not many followers, but I worked to build that up by commenting. I am always surprised when one of my photos is in Top 20 or Popular Page because looking there is not a priority for me. Taking photos and posting them is. I take photos of what I want but in the end I post what I want. I try to avoid self promotion including starting a plethora of threads around topics I am interested in to drive others to my photos, but organising others or campaigning for things is not an unethical activity. It can be important of course to express views and to participate in forums so others know you are about.
My all time popular photo has had 836 views, 237 comments and 125 favs. At the time I had nowhere near this many followers or was even close to following that many. Faving is discretionary and it is an indication of the level of support or connection a photo can make. 95% of those were in the first 24 hours of posting. I enjoyed the acclaim, but notwithstanding this, be careful of what you wish for. Responding to so many comments and favs by viewing and responding in return can take very many hours and is just not sustainable. Hence 365 burn out.
Since being post 365 I have had less Top 20 photos but am very grateful for the support others give me, value their comments, and believe the 365 community has encouraged and helped me to grow. I apologise that I just don't have the time or capacity to respond to all the views and comments I receive.
I've come to the conclusion that one needs to work hard to build a reputation through improving work, and needs to continue to work hard in order to maintain this reputation...it's an easy thing to say when you've had top 20's in the past, but I personally now take more joy out of doing well at themes and getting a few solid comments with personal feedback, I feel my hard work in year 1and year 2 has allowed me to grow enormously and whilst I still work hard at my hobby I don't let the numbers or popularity drive my activity.
Is this the frogmato you are talking about :P
I think the key with all of this is what kind of project you are trying to achieve. I myself am not a professional, sometimes I take terrible photos, sometimes I take pretty good photographs and sometimes I take amazing photos, it depends on what you want to look at. I personally think that pictures of my children are the cutest thing ever (as does every other person who has children) but what I also bear in mind is that an "amazing photo of my children" to me is something quite boring for those of you who have no interest in my children, but to me that is what this project is about MY YEAR, not how many views, Favs, or comments I can get! Of course it's nice to have people comment on my photos and a FAV puts a smile on my face for the whole day, but in the bigger picture I find it unimportant. I also reply to every comment I get and then return the favour by looking through the persons project and commenting back.
My most popular picture was not anywhere near the standards I can achieve photographically, it was popular only because of it's content. If it is something that captures peoples interest and imagination, then it will inevitably achieve a higher click through ratio than something only "you" find interesting.
So my overall feeling on it all is that: Yes there will always be a selection of the same faces in the Top 20 with the odd intruder, but that's what these people spend their lives doing, it's their work or their unrivalled passion. I myself will never get there as this is not my work, so therefore I do not have the time to invest on such a scale. I'm happy with that, I love looking at all of the photos on here from the average Jo, with a point and shoot who can barely point it in the right direction, and have 2 followers, right through to the people who spend every day making a living out of their incredible artistic talents, and have 700 followers.
This site just wouldn't be the same if it wasn't for all of us doing our bit :-)
@tammeray - and ummm no, close but no cigar, there was a photo before that one, that brought me shame, elation, notoriety, acclaim and giggly happiness.
@bobfoto @grizzlysghost @gemtumble @soboy5 @sparkle @jase_h @ronah @lolanae @shuttermonster @onie @peterdegraaff
@michaelelliott
http://365project.org/discuss/general/9968/getting-started-guide-for-new-users
Agree with you both @michaelelliott & @sparkle
@bobfoto @grizzlysghost @gemtumble @soboy5 @jase_h @ronah @lolanae @shuttermonster @onie @brav
@michaelelliott - I will say I get a little surprised when I don't see a shot of NYC in the Top20. I often think about sending you an SOS asking if everything is okay. Your shots of an amazing city has made me thing that perhaps one day I should visit New York.
"Jason in NY" now there's a reality show I'd watch!
Wonderful shots is one thing but I live in a place with no remarkable landscapes, big cities or beautiful beaches and my camera can only try to catch what comes my way
I will just continue to take photos everyday and get better at what I love doing the most.
@bobfoto - I will do a frogman shot one day - another dream !
Bravo for you for saying this!
@jonesp I totally agree... making the favorite fav of someone else thread is a big deal! :)
I appreciate views and comments on my shots--favs are a bonus and getting on the popular page is exciting. I LOVE browsing the popular page and am always amazed at the talent on the top 20. I just say a huge congratulations to those who make the top 20--their shots always inspire me. Haven't a clue how they do what they do, but if I just learn a little bit more throughout this project IT HAS BEEN WORTH IT.
And the best part of all is how willing everyone here is to share their knowledge.
In terms of the whole PP and T20 thing... I had a little success on that front in my first year and similarly to what others have already said, I gained many followers from that exposure. However, having a lot of followers doesn't guarantee lots of favs or T20 status. Pushing yourself harder each day and participating in the community aspect seem to be the key factors to that.
I love the inspiration that I get from spending too many hours everyday on 365, and it is wonderful to make friendships with people from all over the world that share the same passion...(and who don't think its weird that I take my camera pretty much everywhere...)
Ah, frogmato...I really must find a frog in year 2 so I can join that elite level of 365!
@peterdegraaff @grizzlysghost @bobfoto @michaelelliott
I can only assume that with each new year the number of participants multiplies, and so the network gets spread thinner...
I know that I for one am certainly not coming in with expectations of grandeur. It's just too big a place, with a vast wealth of talent. I'm an amateur. I'm here to make a personally memorable calendar that I can look back on with pride as testimony to a year of learning and risk-taking.
I'm just grateful that there are so many people here who take the time to support one another--and that you embrace new people so unresentfully.