Okay, so after a very long conversation with @jasonbarnette , which has left me even more confused about photography. I have decided to do a series of SOOC photos, so that maybe I can get multiple viewpoints in order to figure out how to improve.
I will say that I did try the Picnik clarify tool on this photo,but then I erased it, and I can see how it is "soft" looking. Again, the soft look is more how my eye sees it when I shoot, so I don't know if that's really a bad thing. So yeah.......Opinions, critiques, pleas for me to throw my camera out the window?????
Oh man. You sure know how to make a guy feel bad! I'm trying to help :/
This photo is pretty good. Camera settings look good (manual or not?) and you're telling a story here!
One rule about cropping: if you can cover up a portion of a photo and it still make sense, then you need to crop tighter. Does that blacked, silhouetted body of your cat tell anything? Nope. What about the overexposed yard outside? Nope. You know where the story is here?
The face. Front of the cat's body. Look how gorgeous the outline looks. The intent gaze in those eyes. Forget everything else, just focus on your cat!
This...is better. You think you've done worse today, but you've actually shot a much better photo.
@jasonbarnette
I'm sorry. I am not trying to make you feel bad. I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it.
No, I gave up on the manual setting because he came out REALLY dark and I don't know why. I suppose I probably should have noticed the settings, and then applied them.
So I should zoomed in/got closer to the face while he was looking out the window?
But it's not better, I basically let the camera do all the work without understanding any of it.
@mej2011 But you can view the exif and see what your camera did! This is NOT a bad thing. :-) I like this photo...I want to know what the cat is looking at. :-)
@5unflow3r
Thanks Trina! And thanks for obviously reading through all my rambling. lol. See, I think the story is where the cat is looking at, as well. I think had I just focused on his face, then it would have been more of a "portrait" as opposed to a candid shot,which is what I was going for.
@mej2011 First of all, yes just focus on his face. All the rest in the photo is a distraction. Remember: clean background, no useless junk.
OK...as for the settings. There is more to photography than just the camera settings. Composition, framing, content, knowing when is the right moment to snap a photo. Do you ever look at ESPN online. Ever seen photos of a football player standing on the field? Just standing? No. Cause they want photos of players running, catching, blocking. And if you're a kicker for the Giants...peeing on the sidelines.
On this photo...you caught a great moment. Now...look at your camera settings. Print this photo out on simple paper and write the settings on the page. Then the next time you will know how to replicate this situation. Took me months before I learned it all in my head, you just gotta keep at it!
@jasonbarnette
Hmmmmmmmm. I sort of get what you're saying. Although, I think I would get a lot of "what's he looking at" type comments if I hadn't shown the yard.
So then how do I know when not to use these settings? I think that's my big worry with manual mode. Being that I shoot a lot of animal shots, it's kind of hard to play around with f-stop if I don't get it right on the first try. Is there a common setting that is used, or is it really just that tricky?
@mej2011 A lot of it just comes from practice. It becomes second nature after a while. It seems like a lot at first, but so does almost everything at first. :-)
@mej2011 That...is a complicated question. Over time I have simply learned to *know* when things are right. I can look at a scene and blindly set my camera's ISO, aperture, and exposure before firing the first shot and get it just right. It will take trial and error.
As a general rule: 100 ISO, f/8, 1/100 exposure on a full sunny day. I know when to use a speedlight for fill flash in dark situations. I know I need 400 ISO f/5.6 1/100 on cloudy days.
You will have many, many missed moments to begin with. But you just have to try and fail and try again. And never give up. I won't let you give up.
As for the cropping, sometimes not knowing what someone or something is looking at is the beatiful part of it. Why do movies always have to have a succinct ending? I LOVE movies that are left wide open in the end. Love them.
@5unflow3r
You have a point. I just get frustrated way too easily. Thanks for the words of encouragement. @jasonbarnette
I HATE movies that are left wide open, almost as much as I hate manual mode and tripods. :)
There is two sides to photography; artistic side and tech side. Artistic side kicks tech sides ass. I'd suggest you stick with the automatic modes for now and focus on the composition and story telling.
Why not use this shot for practicing ? Open it in Picnik and start cropping it in different ways. Compare the crops and see what feels the best. Try to figure out why it was the best. There are some "rules" to composition, but they are just a guideline. Practice, and you will develop a "gut feeling" what is the best way to do a shot.
@janmaki
Are you saying that my composition and story telling sucks too? KIDDING! What do you think about the story here? Should I have photographed the backyard or not? I think I should have, because otherwise it just would look weird to me, but I understand the mystery thing of it the other way too.
I will work on the cropping thing. I kind of feel though, that cropping is the last important thing. I think no amount of cropping is going to help if my focus is off.
@mej2011 well, focus is kinda important :) But who cares if it's f8 or ISO400, if the pic is interesting. That's what I tried to say.
I like to see the backyard in this case, where all of the cat is in the shot. The other choice could've been a zoom to just the face, tight square crop.
@janmaki
See. I agree with the backyard thing. Although I would have liked it too look not as overexposed of course. It's hard because I have a more artistic view, like you. Where as @jasonbarnette has more of a technical view due to his work. Which I completely understand, but it's a little overwhelming, at least for me, to work on improving both at the same time.
I'm in agreement with everyone else, that this is a good shot, it's interesting, the light and look on kitty's face is lovely. I think it's a good idea for you to do sooc shots for awhile, then you won't rely heavily on editing to fix a shot you're not happy with. Practically my whole first month of my project is sooc, and I learned a lot about exposure, lighting, shooting at different times of day, just in that short month. Not saying that I'm anywhere near to expert now. Next I slowly started dabbling in processing, went a little crazy sometimes, (which is really fun), but then backed off to a more muted style I was happy with. It's just now that I'm getting around to learning the more technical bits, which believe me, make my head spin just as much as yours. But it's good when you finally "get" something that's been eluding you for awhile. It shows in your shots, and it's a really good feeling. Having said all that I still have miles to go. But yes, I agree with @janmaki - focus on the creative side of photography, while shooting sooc, and then worry about the technical bits. We've all seen amateurs with point and shoots come up with astounding photos, so you don't have to know every camera setting to see beauty around you, and capture it. The technical bits come later, I think. Unless you were planning on doing like, long exposures, or macros, or night shooting - which I don't think you're interested in. Anyways, bit of a long ramble there, but I really appreciate everyone's critiques on both yours and my shots (everyone's really) - I learn so much from the collective artistic mentality on this site. Happy sooc'ing:)
@pwallis
You wrote me a book! WOW! lol. I thought I was focusing on the creative side, but there are technical problems, that I don't notice, that are taking away from that creativity, then that's not good either. I think what I should do is have you and @janmaki and @jasonbarnette find me one shot you think is good of mine, and one shot that you think is bad and why, so maybe I can try and see what you see, because it seems that what I see and what you see aren't the same.
lol - well it's probably the most outside the box shot I've ever seen. No one else ever on 365 in it's entire history, I'm willing to bet, has posted a shot of a Hambone.
But, having gone through your shots, I picked this one. I know there are several since this one that I've fav'd, and it was really hard for me to pick, because you have quite a few that I really really love. But this one just leapt out at me. I like what you've done composition wise, with the slight reflection. Colours are vibrant but not too too much, edit is funky but not over the top, and the focus is nice and sharp too. Plus it's just a cute shot. I think a lot of your shots, the thing that detracts from them, is that damn Orton'ish edit. I know it's addictive, but it can also take away from an otherwise great shot. Anyways - it's this pic. http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-01-19
@pwallis
I really liked that one when I took it, but now I hate it. The reflection distracts me. To me the focus is not sharp enough.
Okay, yeah the ham bone has the creativity, but technically it sucks.
@mej2011 what are you talking about? The focus is sharp around the eyes and head, which is what you're aiming for in Elmo portraiture, and I think the reflection gives it that added bit of awesome. You're too hard on yourself, my dear. Hambone doesn't need technical greatness, it's got magic on it's side.
@pwallis
I don't think I'm too hard on myself, I just think I care too much what others think, and so now that I have people telling me that my stuff isn't good, I'm believing it.
@mej2011 whaaaa? Nobody's telling you your stuff isn't good (at least I hope not) they're just providing the critique you're seeking. Which is valuable, trust me, it costs a lot of money to get the free tutorials we get on this site all the time. I know, I've researched photography course costs. And I don't think your stuff isn't good. I think, like a lot of us, it's a learning process, and I've seen a huge improvement from the beginning of your project (Hambone) until now. You just have more people following and critiqueing you now. Which is a good thing. Suck up all this free knowledge like a sponge!
@pwallis
Okay, I phrased that wrong. I mean, photos that I think are really good, I'm having people critique and tell me that they still need more work than I realized, and I don't know, it just makes me second guess myself. Sometimes I just feel like I've spent a year here and have learned nothing. Accept that I really like the orton effect. lol.
@mej2011 Hahahaha! That just made me lol! I don't think you've learned nothing. Think about that one, did you know what bokeh, or dof, or selective colouring, or negative space, or the Rule of Thirds (I always feel the need to capitalize that one) was, before you started this project? Probably not. And now you're applying those to a lot of your shots. Pretty much all of your shots. And you obviously have a passion for this. You don't just post and go lalalala - look at my pretty cat! You ask for feedback, and information, and critique. I love your tenacity. Every single one of your shots has the critique me tag. I think I've asked for critique maybe 3? 4 times? Hang in there Melissa, you're getting there. Maybe pick a particular thing that you want to work on - like say..... composition (just throwing that out there - there's nothing wrong with your comp) and spend just a week solid working on that alone. Don't worry about anything else in the shot. Then move onto the next thing you want to work on.
@pwallis
Paula sweetie, honey, I still have no idea what the Rule of Thirds is. I'm trying, but it's still confusing. And I'm not good at DOF. I have selective color down, boy do I. lol.
That's actually a really good idea. I will make a list of things to work on and will use that for weekly themes for year two.
@mej2011 see? Tenacity. That's what I love about ya. And you've applied the rule of thirds quite nicely to this shot, I think. So, even if you don't know what it is, you're still doing it. Google rule of thirds. I bet they'll have a grid for you to look at that illustrates it for you. And DOF is hard when you're not using a DSLR type camera that you can adjust focal lengths at your whim, but I still evidence of it in your shots.
@pwallis@mej2011
I like the monster shot too, here's why:
- Fun subject
- Tight framing on a non-distracting background; pic is all about the subject
- Vivid colors, which fit the subject very well
- Focus on the eyes, they look good. The rest of the monster is a bit over-exposed but in this case I like the effect it creates. As long as eyes are OK, anything else can be forgiven :)
- The reflection adds some coolness factor
- Your POV is perfect because you are at the same level than your subject
@janmaki
The monster shot? Do you not know Elmo? lol.
I'm not fond of the reflection, like I said. I think I realize now that he is overexposed and that is my main problem with this shot. Thanks for your opinion.
This is a cool shot compositionally : http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-10-11 ... I love the diagonal lines and the not-hawk is at not-center (=rule of thirds simplified ;-) ) http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-11-26 another very nice composition, I love the color splash in the not-center and using natural framing is always awesome. You also captured the bird looking at your negative space, and to me this creates a story... the bird is looking at open skies, ready to fly to new adventures
@janmaki
We have a not center, a not center now? lol. I agree, those are two shots that I really really like. Wanna know a secret though? Those compositions were lucky. I didn't consciously do those, they just turned out good.
OK here's a shot which has a cool concept but I would've changed some bits :
- I whined about colors in the shot, and I whine about it again :-) S.C. is a nice tool, but why use it in this one ? I would've loved to see the colorful peppers against the non-distracting background (see the connection with Elmo shot)
- POV is now pretty ordinary. How about shooting at the table level = peppers' level (another connection to Elmo...) ? Or go crazy and shoot directly above etc. I know you most likely don't hang in chandeliers to get the shots like I do, but think about what you could do to get different POVs to stuff.
- The row of peppers is really close to "boring zone" = dead center. And you s.c. 'ed the pepper right in the middle. This clashes with the rule of Not-Center :-)
- Distractions; in this kind of shot you don't want to have those walls and power sockets showing
- Add depth or "DoF" to the shot to make it more interesting. Now the shot is quite 2D. How about shooting the peppers from the end of the row so, that there's the smallest pepper in front and then you see how the ones behind get bigger and bigger. 3D feel rocks.
- Fill the frame. Now you have big chunks of nothing above and below the row of peppers. If you did two rows, you could've zoomed in more and fill the frame better with the interesting stuff.
@janmaki
Yes I see the connection and I sort of see what you say about the S.C. but a row of peppers? Come on, it was a boring idea. I was trying to jazz up my lack of creativity. I think the 1960's effect killed it more than the S.C.
You should absolutely do a chandelier hanging selfie.
I see how the colored pepper clashes with the rule of thirds.
I don't know if I just needed to zoom in/move closer in order to not get the socket and such or if a different f stop would have helped. Thoughts?
I really like the 3D idea, I"ll have to try that.
Not too harsh at all. That was all super really helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this all to me. I really appreciate it!
@mej2011 row of peppers is not a boring idea, there are a lot of possibilities. At least I could think of some....
To get rid of the socket, you need to get them out of the frame (zoom, crop or compose the shot in a different way). F-stop tweaking won't make it disappear, maybe make it a bit more blurry.
This photo is pretty good. Camera settings look good (manual or not?) and you're telling a story here!
One rule about cropping: if you can cover up a portion of a photo and it still make sense, then you need to crop tighter. Does that blacked, silhouetted body of your cat tell anything? Nope. What about the overexposed yard outside? Nope. You know where the story is here?
The face. Front of the cat's body. Look how gorgeous the outline looks. The intent gaze in those eyes. Forget everything else, just focus on your cat!
This...is better. You think you've done worse today, but you've actually shot a much better photo.
I'm sorry. I am not trying to make you feel bad. I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it.
No, I gave up on the manual setting because he came out REALLY dark and I don't know why. I suppose I probably should have noticed the settings, and then applied them.
So I should zoomed in/got closer to the face while he was looking out the window?
But it's not better, I basically let the camera do all the work without understanding any of it.
Thanks Trina! And thanks for obviously reading through all my rambling. lol. See, I think the story is where the cat is looking at, as well. I think had I just focused on his face, then it would have been more of a "portrait" as opposed to a candid shot,which is what I was going for.
OK...as for the settings. There is more to photography than just the camera settings. Composition, framing, content, knowing when is the right moment to snap a photo. Do you ever look at ESPN online. Ever seen photos of a football player standing on the field? Just standing? No. Cause they want photos of players running, catching, blocking. And if you're a kicker for the Giants...peeing on the sidelines.
On this photo...you caught a great moment. Now...look at your camera settings. Print this photo out on simple paper and write the settings on the page. Then the next time you will know how to replicate this situation. Took me months before I learned it all in my head, you just gotta keep at it!
Hmmmmmmmm. I sort of get what you're saying. Although, I think I would get a lot of "what's he looking at" type comments if I hadn't shown the yard.
So then how do I know when not to use these settings? I think that's my big worry with manual mode. Being that I shoot a lot of animal shots, it's kind of hard to play around with f-stop if I don't get it right on the first try. Is there a common setting that is used, or is it really just that tricky?
As a general rule: 100 ISO, f/8, 1/100 exposure on a full sunny day. I know when to use a speedlight for fill flash in dark situations. I know I need 400 ISO f/5.6 1/100 on cloudy days.
You will have many, many missed moments to begin with. But you just have to try and fail and try again. And never give up. I won't let you give up.
As for the cropping, sometimes not knowing what someone or something is looking at is the beatiful part of it. Why do movies always have to have a succinct ending? I LOVE movies that are left wide open in the end. Love them.
You have a point. I just get frustrated way too easily. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
@jasonbarnette
I HATE movies that are left wide open, almost as much as I hate manual mode and tripods. :)
Why not use this shot for practicing ? Open it in Picnik and start cropping it in different ways. Compare the crops and see what feels the best. Try to figure out why it was the best. There are some "rules" to composition, but they are just a guideline. Practice, and you will develop a "gut feeling" what is the best way to do a shot.
Sorry if I confuse you :) Hugsies :)
Are you saying that my composition and story telling sucks too? KIDDING! What do you think about the story here? Should I have photographed the backyard or not? I think I should have, because otherwise it just would look weird to me, but I understand the mystery thing of it the other way too.
I will work on the cropping thing. I kind of feel though, that cropping is the last important thing. I think no amount of cropping is going to help if my focus is off.
I like to see the backyard in this case, where all of the cat is in the shot. The other choice could've been a zoom to just the face, tight square crop.
See. I agree with the backyard thing. Although I would have liked it too look not as overexposed of course. It's hard because I have a more artistic view, like you. Where as @jasonbarnette has more of a technical view due to his work. Which I completely understand, but it's a little overwhelming, at least for me, to work on improving both at the same time.
You wrote me a book! WOW! lol. I thought I was focusing on the creative side, but there are technical problems, that I don't notice, that are taking away from that creativity, then that's not good either. I think what I should do is have you and @janmaki and @jasonbarnette find me one shot you think is good of mine, and one shot that you think is bad and why, so maybe I can try and see what you see, because it seems that what I see and what you see aren't the same.
Hambone is good :)
I'll take a look at your pics & let you know
Are you two on drugs? In what way/shape/form is hambone good?
But, having gone through your shots, I picked this one. I know there are several since this one that I've fav'd, and it was really hard for me to pick, because you have quite a few that I really really love. But this one just leapt out at me. I like what you've done composition wise, with the slight reflection. Colours are vibrant but not too too much, edit is funky but not over the top, and the focus is nice and sharp too. Plus it's just a cute shot. I think a lot of your shots, the thing that detracts from them, is that damn Orton'ish edit. I know it's addictive, but it can also take away from an otherwise great shot. Anyways - it's this pic.
http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-01-19
I really liked that one when I took it, but now I hate it. The reflection distracts me. To me the focus is not sharp enough.
Okay, yeah the ham bone has the creativity, but technically it sucks.
I don't think I'm too hard on myself, I just think I care too much what others think, and so now that I have people telling me that my stuff isn't good, I'm believing it.
Okay, I phrased that wrong. I mean, photos that I think are really good, I'm having people critique and tell me that they still need more work than I realized, and I don't know, it just makes me second guess myself. Sometimes I just feel like I've spent a year here and have learned nothing. Accept that I really like the orton effect. lol.
Paula sweetie, honey, I still have no idea what the Rule of Thirds is. I'm trying, but it's still confusing. And I'm not good at DOF. I have selective color down, boy do I. lol.
That's actually a really good idea. I will make a list of things to work on and will use that for weekly themes for year two.
I like the monster shot too, here's why:
- Fun subject
- Tight framing on a non-distracting background; pic is all about the subject
- Vivid colors, which fit the subject very well
- Focus on the eyes, they look good. The rest of the monster is a bit over-exposed but in this case I like the effect it creates. As long as eyes are OK, anything else can be forgiven :)
- The reflection adds some coolness factor
- Your POV is perfect because you are at the same level than your subject
The monster shot? Do you not know Elmo? lol.
I'm not fond of the reflection, like I said. I think I realize now that he is overexposed and that is my main problem with this shot. Thanks for your opinion.
http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-11-26 another very nice composition, I love the color splash in the not-center and using natural framing is always awesome. You also captured the bird looking at your negative space, and to me this creates a story... the bird is looking at open skies, ready to fly to new adventures
We have a not center, a not center now? lol. I agree, those are two shots that I really really like. Wanna know a secret though? Those compositions were lucky. I didn't consciously do those, they just turned out good.
That is horrible! I feel so bad for the kiddies. What is popular there?
You fav'd what first? I'm lost.
Oh. Thank you. Like I said though, it was a lucky shot.
OK here's a shot which has a cool concept but I would've changed some bits :
- I whined about colors in the shot, and I whine about it again :-) S.C. is a nice tool, but why use it in this one ? I would've loved to see the colorful peppers against the non-distracting background (see the connection with Elmo shot)
- POV is now pretty ordinary. How about shooting at the table level = peppers' level (another connection to Elmo...) ? Or go crazy and shoot directly above etc. I know you most likely don't hang in chandeliers to get the shots like I do, but think about what you could do to get different POVs to stuff.
- The row of peppers is really close to "boring zone" = dead center. And you s.c. 'ed the pepper right in the middle. This clashes with the rule of Not-Center :-)
- Distractions; in this kind of shot you don't want to have those walls and power sockets showing
- Add depth or "DoF" to the shot to make it more interesting. Now the shot is quite 2D. How about shooting the peppers from the end of the row so, that there's the smallest pepper in front and then you see how the ones behind get bigger and bigger. 3D feel rocks.
- Fill the frame. Now you have big chunks of nothing above and below the row of peppers. If you did two rows, you could've zoomed in more and fill the frame better with the interesting stuff.
What do you think ? I hope I wasn't too harsh ...
So your good shots were lucky, so what... Just think about why they are good, and it sticks.
Yes I see the connection and I sort of see what you say about the S.C. but a row of peppers? Come on, it was a boring idea. I was trying to jazz up my lack of creativity. I think the 1960's effect killed it more than the S.C.
You should absolutely do a chandelier hanging selfie.
I see how the colored pepper clashes with the rule of thirds.
I don't know if I just needed to zoom in/move closer in order to not get the socket and such or if a different f stop would have helped. Thoughts?
I really like the 3D idea, I"ll have to try that.
Not too harsh at all. That was all super really helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this all to me. I really appreciate it!
Kids play? Wow! That's certainly a foreign concept in America.
To get rid of the socket, you need to get them out of the frame (zoom, crop or compose the shot in a different way). F-stop tweaking won't make it disappear, maybe make it a bit more blurry.
I think I'll just move the table to be in front of the socket. Seems easier. lol.
I have my moments. Thank you very much! :)
@pwallis
Or you're just really opinionated. lol. Thanks! I like you all too. :)