I am really struggling with getting a silky water effect and its starting to frustrate me. I am going to Eilean Donan Castle some time this week and it is something I desperately want to be able to do when I go. I am going to be there at completely the wrong time of day, but there is not an awful lot I can do about it as I am taking family and friends with me for a day trip.
F8 is my lowest stop, ISO100, and can go down to 15". I have 3 ND filters a 2, 4, and 8 which I can layer up, but I am having no joy with my practice shots at the seaside in the evenings.
Can anyone help me? Or do I just have to get to grips with the fact that during the middle of the day, there is no way I am going to get the shot I want?
@steampowered Thanks Paul... I will take a look.. going to google it too... this is just THE photo that I really want lol and I am not going to be there again for at least another year :(
Use f16 or narrower and low ISO, this should allow shutter speeds of 1-2 seconds. Are you shooting in manual? These adjustments assume manual. Using a circular polarizing filter will help with color.
Ocean waves are not the best practice for silky water. Waves have a lot of white water and do not move consitantly to make photographing the motion nice.
@chapjohn Hi John... cant go that low... only as far as F8 I am afraid. Yes, shooting in manual.... I will have to go and practice at the river instead :D and see if that helps any.
@brav Thanks richard.. will certainly look for a spot, but I am starting to think I am not going to get this picture without an over night stay and a new camera lol
In bright sunshine at f/8, ISO 100 you're probably going to be somewhere between a 1/200th and 1/400th of a second exposure, before you add your ND filter. You can't do anything other than add filters to extend that, as you're at the aperture and ISO limit for your camera.
You have a 1-stop (ND2), 2-stop (ND4) and 3-stop (ND8) filter, so if you stack all of those together, you have a total of 6 stops of filtration available. If we look at this chart:
We can see that, with a 1/200th-1/400th exposure, and 6 stops of filtration, you're going to end up with a shutter speed somewhere in the 1/4 of a second range. (Find the closest shutter speed in the leftmost column, and then read across to the '6 stop' value).
1/4 of a second is nowhere near enough to make the water misty, we really need to be reaching the limits of your camera (Ideally, for really silky water you need a shutter speed of a minute or more, but 15 seconds will be just about enough if there's a bit of wind). Reading across the chart, we can see that we're going to need somewhere between 10 and 13 stops of filtration to extend your shutter speed sufficiently.
The best way to do this is to buy a 10-stop ND filter (also referred to as an ND1000 filter), which you can then use alone, or stack with one of your other filters, to allow you to increase your exposure time between 10 and 13 stops, bringing you right into the longest shutter speed your camera supports, and the best chance of making the water appear misty.
Hope that helps, let me know if you have any questions!
Using the sunny 16 rule f/16 at ISO 100 gets you to a shutter of 1/100. Close enough to 1/128 (or 2 to the -7th power), f/8 is two stops down (or is it up? :) ) to 2 to the -9th power shutter (1/512). So you need 9 stops of ND to get you to 1 second exposure (2 to the 0th power). As Alexis says, your 2, 4 and 8 only get you 1, 2 and 3 stops respectively (the powers of 2) so together that's only 6. Seems like you need another 3 if you can't go narrower than f/8.
This is the arithmetic behind Alexis' chart above, of course.
@frankhymus Frank.. you just spoke double dutch... I am a complete novice and am just learning about all of these settings. Add to that I suck at maths and we have a real problem lol I am getting that I need another really chunky filter and a heck of a lot of prayer!
@tori_shaw Your filters are still great for doing stuff at dusk -- as you can see, if you start with a 1/4 second exposure unfiltered, you will reach the 15 second maximum of your camera with the filters you already have.
1/4 of a second happens fairly soon after sunset (or before sunrise, if you're one of those crazy people who photographs before sunrise). You'll just struggle between sunrise and sunset without a stronger filter.
@abirkill as much as I would like to do before sunrise, I think I would end up waking the kids, and that would just be a killer lol.
I have another filter that was my dads, which is what I used to take the waterfall pic in my project, but that was taken in the shade of a huge tree, and I cant add that one to the ones i have as its a smaller filter.
Just going to have to go and see what i can do with what I have, and suck it up I think.
One chap in Jessops was adamant that my poor lil bridge camera wasn't made for filters... was pleased to prove him wrong lol.
@tori_shaw OK, read Alexis' chart, but either way you need 9 or 10 stops of ND, and you only have 6 it seems. For full sunlight if you can't go narrower than f/8. Also as Alex says try it at dusk. That should give you 6 or seven stops right there. If you don't like "powers of 2" just do doublings and halvings of the shutter. One doubling of the shutter is 1 stop up and one halving is one stop down. Unfortunately, apertures are more complex (2 f/stops is one doubling of the f number) so I'll stop if you got into hot water with just the doublings and halvings of the shutter speed.
Or you need a camera or lens that might get you to f/22, that's 3 stops away from f/8 or three doublings of the shutter.
If you have a Polarizer filter, that should get you two more stops, beside the color control someone above talked about.
@frankhymus lol sorry Frank, I hope I didnt come across as rude. Doubling and halving is fine, I promise I am not quite as blonde as I seem (although I am a natural blonde so I reckon I have a fair excuse) and once I get my head around the numbers I will be fine.. just got to understand the hows/whys before it sinks in, so I appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me.
My dads filter is a polarising filter, so I will see if I am able to get it into the holder in a fashion along with the other three to see if it helps any, or just plain old makes it worse as its not meant to be there.
Thank you again for your replies.. it does help honest.
Get a piece of welding glass, very cheap. The colour will be way off, but you can do a good B&W conversion. The only other way is a 10 stop ND as mentioned.
Hi, I know the castle 'quite' well and don't shoot me down in flames, but it's not (in my opinion) a great candidate for moving water shots, the tide is out or in and if the weather is windy the effect you'll get is at best a glassy milky surface not the transparent one. If you're there at dusk it does look fab lit up!
I went througj the learning curve. I have loads of filters amd use a 9stop filter for all my day time shots. It works a treat and is exactly what you need. It even works ok during the day on av mode so no need to do the maths while setting up the shot if you dont want.
@eileenw@ruthhill75 I have only been once before and that was a long time ago. Looks like this shot is going to be a bust then :/ ah well. Will just have to see if I can grab a half decent shot of it regardless. Thank you for mentioning about the water as I would have been so annoyed with myself had I bought another filter and then the water be still. I wish I could be there at dusk but I will most likely be back home by then. Tis a 2 hour trip from where we are staying. At least I know it's the waters fault and not mine for the lack of smoothness lol. So glad I asked. :)
@brav thank you Richard. I will invest in one I think but will leave it til next month. Now I know I am not going to get the shot I want due to lack of movement in the water there is no point breaking my neck to get a new filter to try. I will however be using everyone's kind help and advice as soon as I find somewhere local to put it into practice.
@frankhymus thank you frank. I think this idea is a bust but I will certainly be looking to use everyone's help elsewhere with some actual moving water. I just have to find it. :) will then post a pic of how I get on.
ok, so this was taken this morning, with a small amount of movement in the local harbour with my 6 stops. I am pleased with it, but it is by no means silky smooth lol so I think I am going to have to give up on my dream photo on the grounds that the water wont be budging... easier to accept when its down to mother nature and not my failing photography.
You do need the right conditions, and of course, your idea of silky smooth might not be the same as someone else's!
If the water is really calm, then a long exposure can smooth out any remaining ripples, and make it look even more mirror-like than it did to the eye.
16 minute exposure:
If the water has a bit of movement, you'll get some reflections, but also some softness in the water.
50 second exposure:
And if the water is a bit more active, then you'll get minimal reflections:
3 minute exposure:
If waves are really coming in, a long exposure will stop being 'silky' and start to appear 'misty', as the waves are breaking well above the average level of the water:
@abirkill i never realised just how different they could all be and the times needed for the different effects.. just beautiful all of them. thank you so much for showing me these.. its so much clearer now.
an update for you all.... what a bust.. the tide was out :( ah well. Todays shot of mine is taken from one of the outside levels. We still had an amazing day, and were blessed with fantastic weather whilst we looked around. The heavens opened when we had finished but that was fine. I will just have to go back next year, and plan a little better ;D
Thank you all for your help and advice on the subject, I have certainly learnt a lot.
I dont mind sitting between the kids and you can borrow my gear too :) @northy I think we also need a plane ticket but I can pick you up on the way to the airport :)
I sure hope you have a wonderful time and I'm looking forward to seeing your shots.
Forgot to update this. The water was a bust as there wasn't any around the castle, but I managed some lovely shots regardless. Maybe next time :/ thanks again for everyone's help.
@toast Thanks Weng. I got some new filters the other day and am desperate to get out there and put them to the test, but I am nowhere near a waterfall, stream or anything with water with some movement...unless you count the taps! *grumble groan*
@abirkill Thanks for this Alexis, I am on the waiting list for a Lee 10 stop, so will find your chart really helpful.....I have so much to learn about photography, but I am determined to get this sort of thing understood and put into practice......just wish I lived somewhere more photographically exciting!!
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Ocean waves are not the best practice for silky water. Waves have a lot of white water and do not move consitantly to make photographing the motion nice.
this is where we are going.
In bright sunshine at f/8, ISO 100 you're probably going to be somewhere between a 1/200th and 1/400th of a second exposure, before you add your ND filter. You can't do anything other than add filters to extend that, as you're at the aperture and ISO limit for your camera.
You have a 1-stop (ND2), 2-stop (ND4) and 3-stop (ND8) filter, so if you stack all of those together, you have a total of 6 stops of filtration available. If we look at this chart:
We can see that, with a 1/200th-1/400th exposure, and 6 stops of filtration, you're going to end up with a shutter speed somewhere in the 1/4 of a second range. (Find the closest shutter speed in the leftmost column, and then read across to the '6 stop' value).
1/4 of a second is nowhere near enough to make the water misty, we really need to be reaching the limits of your camera (Ideally, for really silky water you need a shutter speed of a minute or more, but 15 seconds will be just about enough if there's a bit of wind). Reading across the chart, we can see that we're going to need somewhere between 10 and 13 stops of filtration to extend your shutter speed sufficiently.
The best way to do this is to buy a 10-stop ND filter (also referred to as an ND1000 filter), which you can then use alone, or stack with one of your other filters, to allow you to increase your exposure time between 10 and 13 stops, bringing you right into the longest shutter speed your camera supports, and the best chance of making the water appear misty.
Hope that helps, let me know if you have any questions!
Using the sunny 16 rule f/16 at ISO 100 gets you to a shutter of 1/100. Close enough to 1/128 (or 2 to the -7th power), f/8 is two stops down (or is it up? :) ) to 2 to the -9th power shutter (1/512). So you need 9 stops of ND to get you to 1 second exposure (2 to the 0th power). As Alexis says, your 2, 4 and 8 only get you 1, 2 and 3 stops respectively (the powers of 2) so together that's only 6. Seems like you need another 3 if you can't go narrower than f/8.
This is the arithmetic behind Alexis' chart above, of course.
Thank you soo much for the advice and the chart. I will be saving and printing that to keep in my case. (hugs)
1/4 of a second happens fairly soon after sunset (or before sunrise, if you're one of those crazy people who photographs before sunrise). You'll just struggle between sunrise and sunset without a stronger filter.
I have another filter that was my dads, which is what I used to take the waterfall pic in my project, but that was taken in the shade of a huge tree, and I cant add that one to the ones i have as its a smaller filter.
Just going to have to go and see what i can do with what I have, and suck it up I think.
One chap in Jessops was adamant that my poor lil bridge camera wasn't made for filters... was pleased to prove him wrong lol.
Or you need a camera or lens that might get you to f/22, that's 3 stops away from f/8 or three doublings of the shutter.
If you have a Polarizer filter, that should get you two more stops, beside the color control someone above talked about.
Sorry. :(
My dads filter is a polarising filter, so I will see if I am able to get it into the holder in a fashion along with the other three to see if it helps any, or just plain old makes it worse as its not meant to be there.
Thank you again for your replies.. it does help honest.
Good luck anyway!
ok, so this was taken this morning, with a small amount of movement in the local harbour with my 6 stops. I am pleased with it, but it is by no means silky smooth lol so I think I am going to have to give up on my dream photo on the grounds that the water wont be budging... easier to accept when its down to mother nature and not my failing photography.
If the water is really calm, then a long exposure can smooth out any remaining ripples, and make it look even more mirror-like than it did to the eye.
16 minute exposure:
If the water has a bit of movement, you'll get some reflections, but also some softness in the water.
50 second exposure:
And if the water is a bit more active, then you'll get minimal reflections:
3 minute exposure:
If waves are really coming in, a long exposure will stop being 'silky' and start to appear 'misty', as the waves are breaking well above the average level of the water:
20 second exposure:
Thank you all for your help and advice on the subject, I have certainly learnt a lot.
@northy I think we also need a plane ticket but I can pick you up on the way to the airport :)
I sure hope you have a wonderful time and I'm looking forward to seeing your shots.