Moral dilemma: This was an impulsive photo taken as a couple walked past me at the Maiden Tower in Istanbul. I like how the photo turned out, but I have no idea who these people are, and whether they'd approve of my taking their photo and certainly not at all sure whether it's ethical to post photos on a public site without permission. All other photos I've posted that have people in them are small images, so I didn't fret about the ethics of posting their photos without permission. But somehow, this one seems to be so personal, and not "mine." What's the "code of ethics" in a situation like this? I'm putting it in my "Challenges and Extras" album for now so I can ask this question but intend to delete it soon. Your thoughts?
The law varies from country to country on taking photograph's of people in public. Perfectly legal here in the UK, but have no idea about Turkey. Ethically I would not have a problem with posting it at all
To me ethically its no problem at all. Here is a quote from Thomas Leuthard a street photographer in respect to permission,
"If you ask before, they look different into your camera. If you ask afterwards, you have to delete a good photo.
He never has a problem taking or showing a photo of a stranger and he never asks permission.
Provided they are in a public place and your photo is not intrusive or offensive (which I don't think this is) then I see no reason not to post if it's not for profit.
I always wonder about this kinda thing too. Interested to see what people say. It's a lovely shot of them. I just wonder how I would feel if I were the lady? I'm not really sure .. I guess I wouldn't mind, I mean it's not like it's a photo of anyone in an uncompromising position!
Generally it is legal to take and post pictures of people and even children from a public place, a place where they didn't expect privacy. Think about the mobile phone age when everyone is clicking away. you wouldn't however be able to sell these or make money from them directly without getting a model release form these folks, so i don't know how street photographers do it. Also don't write anything slanderous under the photo else they could sue you. Also isn't it their wedding, won't there be hundreds of people with pictures of them from that day posting them on facebook etc?? its not an issue. Nice picture.
@chewyteeth
I still see it as an invasion of privacy. I would be upset if there were pictures of me online without my knowledge. This is why I"ll never do street photography.
@chewyteeth my thoughts exactly - I had to read a lot about the law in Australia before I felt totally comfortable doing it though. Newcomers to 365 can search the 365 discussion board - there are plenty of threads relating to the legal, ethical and moral rights relating to Street Photography.
well fair enough, but in the big world we don't really have to consider individuals views, just the law which represents the majority. I guess if Junko wants to have the individuals consent she'll have to go back with release forms, but in general she's fine.
I mean we're being photographed all day everyday, here in the UK it is the country with the most CCTV cameras relatively, so your privacy has already gone out of the window. Knowing what I know about street photography I would say you represent less than 1% with that opinion, most people don't mind being photographed. Certainly on their wedding day. Still we're entitled to our own foibles. I hate being photographed but not for any of these issues, just because I make bad photos!
@chewyteeth
That is the problem with society these days, people feel they don't have to consider individual views until it is THEIR view being challenged.
What Jase said... I do tons of street photography and it is very rare that I'm the only one out there with a camera... I expect I'm in all sorts of photos online I know nothing about... With the prevalence of the camera phone you can't really expect privacy anywhere out in public...
ha ha, imagine a world where we had to respect individuals views rather than had a law to represent the majority. So if I took a picture of a football match I'd have to have consent of all the players and spectators in advance, in a stadium maybe asking 50,000 people?? Its the best way, even if you don't agree with it.
The laws against photography have toughened rather than slackened so society is getting more like you want it not less. and in 100 years when someone wants to see what a school, hospital, old peoples home or children's sports match looks like from the year 2013 they're gonna struggle to find pictures because we're so scared of taking pictures nowadays. When you google 1920s society and see all the street scenes do you get offended on their behalf? no, you're fascinated. We should have more freedom not less.
Hey I think smoking and dogs should be banned in society, and guns in US society, but I shrug my shoulders because its out of my power, if the majority want it that's fair.
@chewyteeth
Again, unless you're a paid photographer at said football game, if I were to take photos, I would keep them to myself. I don't get offended by seeing street photography from this era, I simply just do not agree with it. Please don't get me started on gun control. lol
@mej2011
Why you on 365 if you disagree with the idea of sharing photos? And you're for guns but again st photos? I think at least we collectively answered junkos question, I think your issues with society are a separate point.
@mej2011
And did you get permission for this photo to be posted on line? Just because it's a photo of a photo doesn't mean that person would have wanted it made public on the internet... http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-12-18
And checked with all four people in this shot?Two were abviously 365-ers and would anticipate that they would appear in your project, but the two in the background? http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-07-07
I am sure I need to commend you for sticking with your principles and getting their permission to post...
@mej2011 I seriously question you on that first photo... not to be harsh, but based on that posting it appears that this is a photo of someone who passed away... what foresight you had to gain her permission prior to that for posting her photo on the occasion of her passing...
It depends on the laws of where you live but in the US you can take photos of anyone in a public place. I never think twice about posting people I don't know - EXCEPT for children - I get permission when posting them.
@mej2011 That's exactly what I was thinking about the way you put down everybody here who feels it is OK to post photos of strangers taken in public places.
It is not an invasion of privacy when there is no expectation of privacy.
And I do not get your thought process (though I am sure it is just common sense, which is apparently beyond my comprehension) that it is OK for paid photographers at public events, e.g. sporting events, to post photos of strangers on a public forum (TV, newspapers, internet) but it is not OK for me to do the same. If I don't want my picture posted publicly I don't care who took it, a professional or an amateur photographer.
@marilyn
In NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM did I PUT ANYONE DOWN! I simply stated my opinion, and my reasoning behind it. Everyone has their opinions, I have mine. I'm not asking anyone to agree with mine, or follow my principles. Move along....
I think it's good that you are thinking about this. I guess we're pretty much on camera all the time so we forget about it and I don't think there is anything illegal about it. People certainly take pictures of celebrities and sell them without permission.
What would bother me isn't something like you've taken here but a grieving parent at an accident scene.
@mej2011 true... but policing the technology becomes virtually impossible and the laws generally are permissive when it comes to public places... also, i wonder what specifically the concern is? prior to the mass availability of digital cameras it was extremely unlikely that one would be noticed and remembered in public - but not impossible... we all enjoyed the practical obscurity of being lost in the crowd... but that would never have prevented someone with perfect recall and an artists' skill from rendering what you happened to be doing onto paper and showing it in a gallery for all to see... again, you can hold the opinion that this doesn't make it right, but i guess my question is, what makes it wrong?
anyhoo... i'm not really feeling a need to stand on a soapbox in any way... just answering your question... so yah, let's move along...
oh - and for those who follow me who know i hate having my picture taken, it's because i am hopeless UNphotogenic, not because of concerns over invasion of privacy ;p
I ask myself before every street shot, is it a shot that I feel comfortable with, meaning if I was in the position of the subject rather than the photographer would I be bothered by it, if I would I would not take the shot, legally you have every right to take the shot morally it is up to you and what you feel comfortable with. I think the shot that started this thread off is a lovely shot of a beautiful couple in a stunning location I would have no problem posting it at all.
@asrai
Exactly my point. I personally would feel uncomfortable if someone took my picture without my permission, there fore I don't agree with it. And therefore, I won't do it.
@mej2011 and thats your prerogative you dont feel comfortable taking street shot so you dont I have no problem at all as long as they are not defamatory so I do, I think people get riled especially in any art form when the context of a debate seems to push the idea that their artform is wrong based upon someone elses ethical or moral values whether this was meant to be the case or not. If you look at it some of the most iconic photographs of all time were taken tis way so personally I am glad that people continue to take photos that may one day be iconic in their own right, but like you say its not for everyone and I for one respect that too.
@asrai
And I understand where you're coming from,especially regarding iconic photos. But, I also think that the change in times and society must be considered. Either way, I respect the photographer's choice regardless of their choice. Thank you for responding to me in a calm, explanatory manner.
@mej2011 i wasn't explaining myself well... basically i just meant that you are out and about and are noticed and whether someone commits you to memory or not is not something you have any control over... i understand your perspective and fair enough - you don't like the idea of street photography and you don't do it... guess i just see it differently...
@northy
I agree, and for all I know there are times when I've been photographed without my knowledge. The concept of doing something without someone's knowledge/consent makes ME uncomfortable, but I NEVER meant to judge anyone here who feel differently. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
I wonder if you are feeling unsure of yourself being comfortable doing street photography more than the actual genre of street photography?? I'm certainly not trying to put words in your mouth or get into an argument...just curious. I only ask because you actually posted the photo when you could have just asked the question without it. Your profile states that you just bought your DSLR and have never done a project like this, so maybe it's just introduced you to a new idea. I know I had never considered taking a stranger's photo before this project!
Thanks for jumping into this conversation, everyone, and for giving us a lot to consider. As I might have predicted, we have various perspectives from legality to ethics to personal preferences.
@tryeveryday -- I think you summed it up perfectly. In the past, I have taken photos of things that create personal memories -- family, friends, places, events I am part of, etc. In joining this community and taking on challenges, I have found myself photographing in new ways. I'm particularly enjoying the street photography when I feel it is not intrusive (like my recent photos of the Chestnut Seller at Night http://365project.org/jyokota/365/2013-01-20 or Grand Bazaar http://365project.org/jyokota/365/2013-01-19) but I'm questioning this particular one, which I like as a photo, but feels like I've captured someone else's memory, although in a very public place.
If I may throw in my 2 cents (although I'm in the UK, so it should be 2 pence), but as long as you're not being 'invasive' then taking a strangers photo is okay. (Yes, everyone will have different ideas on how 'invasive' something is).
If I'm walking down the road and I see someone with a camera, I'm not going to get annoyed. If someone followed me down the road standing a metre away taking my picture then I would be.
I explicitly looked up the laws regarding filming and photography in public for this filming of this video I made - http://vimeo.com/31056838 - out of the thousands of people that walked through this video and the good 50 odd people that came and spoke to me, only one woman had an issue with it as she didn't her baby to be in the shot.
At the end of the day, you're in a public place, so having your photo taken in a crowd shouldn't be a problem. You don't get annoyed if someone can see you in a public place or if someone just remembers your face from seeing it? Is they're acceptable, then so is a picture being taken... At least that's my opion. Feel free to argue with me, disagree with me, support me, whatever. We all have and are entitled to, our own opinions.
I feel self-conscious taking photos of people in public and mostly avoid it. As far as I'm aware photography is free in public places here in Australia although there are some restrictions around kids.
My opinion is that as long as you are not trying to personally profit from it, it is OK to post. They were in a public place and they are a handsome couple so it is not out of the question that someone would want a photograph.
Bottom line is, if it makes you uncomfortable, don't post it. You will probably regret it later. Better to err on the side of caution.
In NZ we have a Bill of Rights which gives one the fundamental freedom to impart or receive information in any form (subject to existing laws).
However I was recently jumped by Security in a local mall for taking photos of a couple of colourful window displays. I wasn't going to argue but it motivated me to make inquiry re amateur photography rights with the NZ Commission of Human Rights - Still awaiting a reply. As far as persons go I will ask permission when I feel I might be intruding on a persons privacy but not if it's a casual pic of passers by. I shall post the result of my inquiry when it turns up.
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"If you ask before, they look different into your camera. If you ask afterwards, you have to delete a good photo.
He never has a problem taking or showing a photo of a stranger and he never asks permission.
Generally it is legal to take and post pictures of people and even children from a public place, a place where they didn't expect privacy. Think about the mobile phone age when everyone is clicking away. you wouldn't however be able to sell these or make money from them directly without getting a model release form these folks, so i don't know how street photographers do it. Also don't write anything slanderous under the photo else they could sue you. Also isn't it their wedding, won't there be hundreds of people with pictures of them from that day posting them on facebook etc?? its not an issue. Nice picture.
I still see it as an invasion of privacy. I would be upset if there were pictures of me online without my knowledge. This is why I"ll never do street photography.
@mej2011
A wedding party I 'crashed'...
I never said there wasn't. As far as I know, however, there are not.
well fair enough, but in the big world we don't really have to consider individuals views, just the law which represents the majority. I guess if Junko wants to have the individuals consent she'll have to go back with release forms, but in general she's fine.
I mean we're being photographed all day everyday, here in the UK it is the country with the most CCTV cameras relatively, so your privacy has already gone out of the window. Knowing what I know about street photography I would say you represent less than 1% with that opinion, most people don't mind being photographed. Certainly on their wedding day. Still we're entitled to our own foibles. I hate being photographed but not for any of these issues, just because I make bad photos!
That is the problem with society these days, people feel they don't have to consider individual views until it is THEIR view being challenged.
What Jase said... I do tons of street photography and it is very rare that I'm the only one out there with a camera... I expect I'm in all sorts of photos online I know nothing about... With the prevalence of the camera phone you can't really expect privacy anywhere out in public...
Just because the technology exists doesn't make it right.
@mej2011 @northy @chewyteeth
ha ha, imagine a world where we had to respect individuals views rather than had a law to represent the majority. So if I took a picture of a football match I'd have to have consent of all the players and spectators in advance, in a stadium maybe asking 50,000 people?? Its the best way, even if you don't agree with it.
The laws against photography have toughened rather than slackened so society is getting more like you want it not less. and in 100 years when someone wants to see what a school, hospital, old peoples home or children's sports match looks like from the year 2013 they're gonna struggle to find pictures because we're so scared of taking pictures nowadays. When you google 1920s society and see all the street scenes do you get offended on their behalf? no, you're fascinated. We should have more freedom not less.
Hey I think smoking and dogs should be banned in society, and guns in US society, but I shrug my shoulders because its out of my power, if the majority want it that's fair.
Again, unless you're a paid photographer at said football game, if I were to take photos, I would keep them to myself. I don't get offended by seeing street photography from this era, I simply just do not agree with it. Please don't get me started on gun control. lol
Why you on 365 if you disagree with the idea of sharing photos? And you're for guns but again st photos? I think at least we collectively answered junkos question, I think your issues with society are a separate point.
Man my town is covered in dog shit and smells of cigarettes, when I gets in charge they both going.
Why as someone's opinion if you A) don't care and B) put words in their mouth?
And did you get permission for this photo to be posted on line? Just because it's a photo of a photo doesn't mean that person would have wanted it made public on the internet...
http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-12-18
And checked with all four people in this shot?Two were abviously 365-ers and would anticipate that they would appear in your project, but the two in the background?
http://365project.org/mej2011/365/2011-07-07
I am sure I need to commend you for sticking with your principles and getting their permission to post...
Indeed. Nice try though
That's why you ask the permission of THE FAMILY! Can we use some common sense, please?
It is not an invasion of privacy when there is no expectation of privacy.
And I do not get your thought process (though I am sure it is just common sense, which is apparently beyond my comprehension) that it is OK for paid photographers at public events, e.g. sporting events, to post photos of strangers on a public forum (TV, newspapers, internet) but it is not OK for me to do the same. If I don't want my picture posted publicly I don't care who took it, a professional or an amateur photographer.
And now I am hopping off my soapbox...
In NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM did I PUT ANYONE DOWN! I simply stated my opinion, and my reasoning behind it. Everyone has their opinions, I have mine. I'm not asking anyone to agree with mine, or follow my principles. Move along....
What would bother me isn't something like you've taken here but a grieving parent at an accident scene.
anyhoo... i'm not really feeling a need to stand on a soapbox in any way... just answering your question... so yah, let's move along...
oh - and for those who follow me who know i hate having my picture taken, it's because i am hopeless UNphotogenic, not because of concerns over invasion of privacy ;p
@jase_h @chewyteeth
What are the chances that someone has perfect recall, let alone perfect recall AND art skill? I think we're getting a bit far fetched here.
Exactly my point. I personally would feel uncomfortable if someone took my picture without my permission, there fore I don't agree with it. And therefore, I won't do it.
And I understand where you're coming from,especially regarding iconic photos. But, I also think that the change in times and society must be considered. Either way, I respect the photographer's choice regardless of their choice. Thank you for responding to me in a calm, explanatory manner.
Thanks for posting this topic. :)
I agree, and for all I know there are times when I've been photographed without my knowledge. The concept of doing something without someone's knowledge/consent makes ME uncomfortable, but I NEVER meant to judge anyone here who feel differently. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
I wonder if you are feeling unsure of yourself being comfortable doing street photography more than the actual genre of street photography?? I'm certainly not trying to put words in your mouth or get into an argument...just curious. I only ask because you actually posted the photo when you could have just asked the question without it. Your profile states that you just bought your DSLR and have never done a project like this, so maybe it's just introduced you to a new idea. I know I had never considered taking a stranger's photo before this project!
@tryeveryday -- I think you summed it up perfectly. In the past, I have taken photos of things that create personal memories -- family, friends, places, events I am part of, etc. In joining this community and taking on challenges, I have found myself photographing in new ways. I'm particularly enjoying the street photography when I feel it is not intrusive (like my recent photos of the Chestnut Seller at Night http://365project.org/jyokota/365/2013-01-20 or Grand Bazaar http://365project.org/jyokota/365/2013-01-19) but I'm questioning this particular one, which I like as a photo, but feels like I've captured someone else's memory, although in a very public place.
@pocketmouse
If I'm walking down the road and I see someone with a camera, I'm not going to get annoyed. If someone followed me down the road standing a metre away taking my picture then I would be.
I explicitly looked up the laws regarding filming and photography in public for this filming of this video I made - http://vimeo.com/31056838 - out of the thousands of people that walked through this video and the good 50 odd people that came and spoke to me, only one woman had an issue with it as she didn't her baby to be in the shot.
At the end of the day, you're in a public place, so having your photo taken in a crowd shouldn't be a problem. You don't get annoyed if someone can see you in a public place or if someone just remembers your face from seeing it? Is they're acceptable, then so is a picture being taken... At least that's my opion. Feel free to argue with me, disagree with me, support me, whatever. We all have and are entitled to, our own opinions.
Bottom line is, if it makes you uncomfortable, don't post it. You will probably regret it later. Better to err on the side of caution.
However I was recently jumped by Security in a local mall for taking photos of a couple of colourful window displays. I wasn't going to argue but it motivated me to make inquiry re amateur photography rights with the NZ Commission of Human Rights - Still awaiting a reply. As far as persons go I will ask permission when I feel I might be intruding on a persons privacy but not if it's a casual pic of passers by. I shall post the result of my inquiry when it turns up.