Looking around at what's available in NZ 2nd hand, it looks like I could afford maybe a Canon EOS 350D or a Nikon D50 (with standard lens kits). Occasionally see something a little newer at about the prices I could manage (could go up to $400 but prefer $200-300 range and that's NZD so $200NZD is about $170USD)
Was there any great leap forward in DSLR, where you just would not consider any model earlier than [FILL IN THE BLANK]?
If you look at my album, it's almost all child portraits and such like, that's what I'm focusing on and trying to improve, they're all taken with a NIkon L120 P&S, I'd like to start exerting a little more control over my shots, but wondering how "vintage" my DSLR purchase could get before the L120 would generally out do it.
I have the 350D, I bought it nearly 7 years ago and think it would be great as a relatively cheap learning dslr for someone. I still use it daily and have no problems with it.
I do look at more recent, higher grade cameras and would love to have the money to buy one but it isn't an option at the moment.
I would reccomend that you save up for a new lens too, my kit lens was the 18-55mm lens and whilst it was ok to begin with I much prefer the lenses I have now.
@alpeedee I picked up a cheap 2nd hand D50 back in November and loved it, unfortunately I knocked it over after a month and killed it. As it was my only DSLR I can't really compare it to anything so that is prob not any help whatsoever :) I did get a free SLR on Freecycle which I absolutely love, so maybe a option if budget is an issue and you want to try some film shooting? Which you should, as FILM ROCKS :)
@emmar84 I've had my eye on a 350D that comes with the 18-55mm and 75-300mm at just over $200 looks to be in decent condition. Would you say more recent cameras are feature driven? For instance they are more elaborate tools, but one could still learn to do as good or nearly as good a job on the older tools (like a 350D?)
@jasehoad As much as the idea has occurred to me, I already shave with a straight razor, soap and bristle brush. I consider that my nod to ye olde way of doing things ;) But just out of curiosity do you develop them yourself?
I'm using a Canon 300D. It does 6MP. I bought it secondhand a couple of years ago from a colleague and have to say it was a great way to get familiar with what a DSLR can actually do. However I do find the low resolution (by comparison with more recent models) a bit frustrating at times.
The downside of the more recent models is that they are a lot more expensive, they come with features you may not always want, and the file size of pictures is seriously large so your pc will get clogged up pretty quickly (which means a lot of USB sticks if you want to keep the pictures). I wouldn't go back to a 6MP camera but I would consider 10MP a minimum. I am looking for 12MP or more if I can get it, but will have to wait until opportunity arises.
I haven't upgraded so far partly because of money but also because the DSLR is a learning curve and I didn't want to buy a better one when I hadn't really figured out how to use the one I currently have.
I own the Cannon 350D and had many happy years shooting with it my main incentive for getting it was I could use the lenses from my 18 mm-350 canon.
The first couple of months worth of pics on my project are all with the 350D.
The one advantage canon has over Nikon is that with an adaptor you can use Nikon lenses on the canon but not the other way round.
Most of the feature's added on the newer cameras are really not necessary however if a faster frame/second speed and megapixeles is an issue you should consider their options.
Shooting in raw means you can do all your processing with a reasonable photo editing package.
I upgraded to the d7000 just recently i fantastic gift from my loving wife and with it moved over to a 10-20mm wide angle and the 18-105mm lenses.my main discovery is i should have owned a wide angle lens years ago.H
Hey, are you using eBay? Use eBay. I paid £240 for my Canon 400, but I've seen one on there in the UK at the moment for £50 and every so often it freezes and you have to turn it off and on again. Like seriously like once a week - wtf. get a bargain! Also buy the body only, because the lenses can be begged borrowed and stolen. I got a Pentax to Canon ring adaptor from China for £14 and now I can get old Pentax lenses, usually about £5 each and fit them to my digital, as long as I use AV setting or manual because the camera can't focus and affect a manual lens. Get on eBay and price up those options and see if you can't afford something decent.
The cool thing about DSLR is that in most cases, when you purchase a lens for a make you can normally use the same lens on newer bodies.... :) Of course there are exceptions.
To be honest, the features do not really change a great deal between the cheaper and $$$ models of cameras... and to some extent you shouldn't be looking at features but image quality. As an example, you dont want t camera that can put a frame around the image in camera, but the image is crap.
for me the main and biggest difference between the cheaper and $$$ camera is their ability to deal with low light and reduce noise. This is the sole and only reason why I upgraded to a 5D mk II
DSLR also have a life span and the life span is determined by the amount of photos the camera can take. This is because a DSLR is mechanical and this wears out so just I would test drive the camera first to ensure that it does take photo and ask how many photo it has taken.... As a general rule you are looking like getting around 200,000 photos out of a camera. I would suspect that 95% of camera will never make that in their life but its worth asking.
Now if I was in your position and someone offered me that camera with two lens that I can use if I upgraded, I would take it.... $200 is stuff all for a body and 2 lens... Now having said that if you move up the the simi/pro camera you will have to get new lens as these will not fit. Now having said that you can use the pro lens on this camera so you would upgrade you lens and then upgrade the body.
There is always a debate if you should shoot canon or nikon.... I really dont care, its just a tool to do the job... Now having said that I shoot canon but if I started again I would shoot Nikon as they have better control at your finger tips than Canon. the same controls, just Canon you need to do a few more steps. :)
Now on top of that, if you do buy a Canon, I am here to help you out as I know them inside an out.. :)
I picked up a Nikon D1H Pro body for $250. Shoots great...still. 10 years old, and built better than new ones nowadays.
And, a qualifier...if anyone says something like "Yeah, but is only has 3 megapixels", my response to that is "So what, Megapixels don't matter. You've been sucked in to Marketing hype."
I've not really found there's anything major I can't do with the 350D, more recent models are generally capable of more fps but for my purposes it hasn't been a problem.
The 350D has 8mp and the resolution has only been too poor for me to make large prints if I have significantly cropped the image first. Obviously it isn't going to be lareg enough to make huge poster sized prints mutliple metres in dimension but again as I have never needed to make a print of that size it hasn't been an issue
In low light the image can be quite noisy but with processing to remove it I have always managed. The highest ISO is 1600 so if you planned to do a lot of low light shooting you may want to consider a camera with a higher ISO.
The features in more recent versions are not necessarily ones I want (video, in camera edit functions etc) but it took a while of playing with the 350d and really learning the menus to find out where the functions were hidden away. For instance to adjust the intesity of the flash you have to enter the menu and scroll through (only takes a couple of seconds) but I would prefer to have had a button/scroll to do it instead.
All in all, I can't knock my 350D, it has served me very well, the majority of photos in my albums were taken with it so feel free to have a look.
@agima You said DSLR's wear out because they are mechanical. Seriously...
There are mechanical parts of course. They allegedly do wear out because of the actuations, but not because they are mechanical. They are mainly electronic technology nightmares, perhaps.
I have many "mechanical" cameras, dating back decades, 2 Pentax and 2 Mamiya Med Formats. And, they all work as good as the day they came out of the box, and are still in use. And, they will outlive the plastic electronic junk made nowadays because they are built to last, not built to obsolete themselves, which is the essence of technology. And, they all take better images than any Pro Level DSLR out today.
If I might hijack this thread just for a second camera dudes. I wanna buy the Canon 550d this year if I save up my pocket money, I believe Canon is bringing out a new camera in the next couple of months, is it the 650D?? Do you guys think the 550D will go much cheaper when this happens?
I think alot of people are thinking of your budget as the same value in their denomination which is probably not right since you can get a heck of a lot more for £300 than you can for £300 NZD (also given the second hand markets around)
Personally, if your budget is that, get anything you can for it! If its a 300D / 350D / 400D (I doubt it though?).. just do it - but i'd recommend staying with either Canon or Nikon. Keep a lookout for a 30D - they were considered the workhorse and lots of people still have them because they're so good / reliable. So if you find one, get one but I doubt they'll go that cheaply.
For me if i were doing video, the minimum requirement would be 550D
@chewyteeth prices will tend to drop and you've probably picked the right item there... the main difference between the 550D and the 600D seems to be the fully articulated screen which if you're not shooting a bog load of video of doing shots at weird angles, you dont really need
@chewyteeth I've decided not to go with this one, will do a bit of research, go and look at new ones and work out exactly what i want then go and find on ebay - thanks so much for taking the trouble to look for me! Will let you know how i get on
The best advice I recieved when choosing a Dslr was don't spend all your money on the camera. Quality lenses are a better investment than an expensive camera. Also remember that unless you are willing to spend money to replace your lenese you will be locked into whatever brand when you upgrade.
My first DSLR was a Canon XTI, loved it. It had some low light issues. I upgraded to the 60 D and love it. I dont use the pull out screen much or the video. As far as options there are a few differences. The XTIs box lense is kind of crappy 18-55mm I never use it anymore. I do think its better to have good lenses. I use the 50mm ll and the 18-135 the most. But Im still learning too. I just love to buy gadgets lol.
@cluvlj You are correct it is how many "actuations" the camera has taken.
Isn't the actions of "actuations" the process of the shutter openeing and closing and the curtains opening and closeing? Is this not mechanical? It isn't the sensor that fails is the shutter and curtains that fail.
I personally woudnt think that anyone on this site would take enough photos to experience the issue, but when purchasing a second hand new camera it is worth noting.
Oh BTW happy for you to explain it in your words? That is unless you think it doesn't happen.
@chewyteeth Historically the camera companies bring out the new line of camera toward the end of the year, now having said that last year (mmm maybe the year before) the bought out the 1100D and i dont think that changed the price of the 550D, so with that in mind I dont think a new line of the 600D serires will change the cost of the 550d. I do think it will change the cost of the 600D.
I can only comment on Nikon. The difference in price between a used D50, D70 and D80 isn't that much in NZ. I would go for the D80 if you can find one, they have much bigger LCD on the back which makes all the difference in checking your shots. It's also easier to view when outdoors. And larger sensor (10mp vs 6mp) There are a couple on tradme for $500 or less. D50 is more like $350-400. If the price difference is important to you, you'll be more than happy with the D50, but I think the D80 is worth the bump in price. Another option is the D5000, if you can get it around or under $500.
Thanks everyone! This advice has helped immensely. So, what I'm getting is that the biggest difference between buying new entry level and 2nd hand entry level is:
Ooomph in terms of MP: That is fine, it's nice to be able to do heavy cropping, but I can live without it and large prints are a non issue for me.
"Nice to have" features: Video,improvements in, or the mere existence of, live view, faster fps. I can use my nikon for video but I rarely do anyway. Live view would be nice but could live without. Faster fps would be cool, but given my p&s is 0.7 fps even these older DSLRs will outdo it comfortably.
"Ease of use" features: People apparently coped just fine at one point without them, I think I could manage too ;)
I take it there are internal, picturey capturey things, that are improved in some way? (I apologise if the technical jargon is overwhelming anyone)
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I do look at more recent, higher grade cameras and would love to have the money to buy one but it isn't an option at the moment.
I would reccomend that you save up for a new lens too, my kit lens was the 18-55mm lens and whilst it was ok to begin with I much prefer the lenses I have now.
@jasehoad As much as the idea has occurred to me, I already shave with a straight razor, soap and bristle brush. I consider that my nod to ye olde way of doing things ;) But just out of curiosity do you develop them yourself?
The downside of the more recent models is that they are a lot more expensive, they come with features you may not always want, and the file size of pictures is seriously large so your pc will get clogged up pretty quickly (which means a lot of USB sticks if you want to keep the pictures). I wouldn't go back to a 6MP camera but I would consider 10MP a minimum. I am looking for 12MP or more if I can get it, but will have to wait until opportunity arises.
I haven't upgraded so far partly because of money but also because the DSLR is a learning curve and I didn't want to buy a better one when I hadn't really figured out how to use the one I currently have.
The first couple of months worth of pics on my project are all with the 350D.
The one advantage canon has over Nikon is that with an adaptor you can use Nikon lenses on the canon but not the other way round.
Most of the feature's added on the newer cameras are really not necessary however if a faster frame/second speed and megapixeles is an issue you should consider their options.
Shooting in raw means you can do all your processing with a reasonable photo editing package.
I upgraded to the d7000 just recently i fantastic gift from my loving wife and with it moved over to a 10-20mm wide angle and the 18-105mm lenses.my main discovery is i should have owned a wide angle lens years ago.H
To be honest, the features do not really change a great deal between the cheaper and $$$ models of cameras... and to some extent you shouldn't be looking at features but image quality. As an example, you dont want t camera that can put a frame around the image in camera, but the image is crap.
for me the main and biggest difference between the cheaper and $$$ camera is their ability to deal with low light and reduce noise. This is the sole and only reason why I upgraded to a 5D mk II
DSLR also have a life span and the life span is determined by the amount of photos the camera can take. This is because a DSLR is mechanical and this wears out so just I would test drive the camera first to ensure that it does take photo and ask how many photo it has taken.... As a general rule you are looking like getting around 200,000 photos out of a camera. I would suspect that 95% of camera will never make that in their life but its worth asking.
Now if I was in your position and someone offered me that camera with two lens that I can use if I upgraded, I would take it.... $200 is stuff all for a body and 2 lens... Now having said that if you move up the the simi/pro camera you will have to get new lens as these will not fit. Now having said that you can use the pro lens on this camera so you would upgrade you lens and then upgrade the body.
There is always a debate if you should shoot canon or nikon.... I really dont care, its just a tool to do the job... Now having said that I shoot canon but if I started again I would shoot Nikon as they have better control at your finger tips than Canon. the same controls, just Canon you need to do a few more steps. :)
Now on top of that, if you do buy a Canon, I am here to help you out as I know them inside an out.. :)
I hope that helped and I didn't rave on too much.
@chewyteeth - I had a look on ebay and couldn't find any bargins, but will look again - thanks for the tip
And, a qualifier...if anyone says something like "Yeah, but is only has 3 megapixels", my response to that is "So what, Megapixels don't matter. You've been sucked in to Marketing hype."
Look for em. They are out there. Good luck!
The 350D has 8mp and the resolution has only been too poor for me to make large prints if I have significantly cropped the image first. Obviously it isn't going to be lareg enough to make huge poster sized prints mutliple metres in dimension but again as I have never needed to make a print of that size it hasn't been an issue
In low light the image can be quite noisy but with processing to remove it I have always managed. The highest ISO is 1600 so if you planned to do a lot of low light shooting you may want to consider a camera with a higher ISO.
The features in more recent versions are not necessarily ones I want (video, in camera edit functions etc) but it took a while of playing with the 350d and really learning the menus to find out where the functions were hidden away. For instance to adjust the intesity of the flash you have to enter the menu and scroll through (only takes a couple of seconds) but I would prefer to have had a button/scroll to do it instead.
All in all, I can't knock my 350D, it has served me very well, the majority of photos in my albums were taken with it so feel free to have a look.
There are mechanical parts of course. They allegedly do wear out because of the actuations, but not because they are mechanical. They are mainly electronic technology nightmares, perhaps.
I have many "mechanical" cameras, dating back decades, 2 Pentax and 2 Mamiya Med Formats. And, they all work as good as the day they came out of the box, and are still in use. And, they will outlive the plastic electronic junk made nowadays because they are built to last, not built to obsolete themselves, which is the essence of technology. And, they all take better images than any Pro Level DSLR out today.
What you looking for, I'd state my life on some bargains being on their!!
I heart your last message. I was out shooting the other day with an Olympus OM1 from 1974, and my Canon DSLR and guess which one broke on me?
If I might hijack this thread just for a second camera dudes. I wanna buy the Canon 550d this year if I save up my pocket money, I believe Canon is bringing out a new camera in the next couple of months, is it the 650D?? Do you guys think the 550D will go much cheaper when this happens?
@agima
and what's your budget?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nikon-D40x-lens-/160716390004?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_DigitalCameras_DigitalCameras_JN&hash=item256b717e74
D40 going in half an hour only up to £185, looks like its minus a battery but that would cost you pennies.
I think alot of people are thinking of your budget as the same value in their denomination which is probably not right since you can get a heck of a lot more for £300 than you can for £300 NZD (also given the second hand markets around)
Personally, if your budget is that, get anything you can for it! If its a 300D / 350D / 400D (I doubt it though?).. just do it - but i'd recommend staying with either Canon or Nikon. Keep a lookout for a 30D - they were considered the workhorse and lots of people still have them because they're so good / reliable. So if you find one, get one but I doubt they'll go that cheaply.
For me if i were doing video, the minimum requirement would be 550D
@chewyteeth prices will tend to drop and you've probably picked the right item there... the main difference between the 550D and the 600D seems to be the fully articulated screen which if you're not shooting a bog load of video of doing shots at weird angles, you dont really need
Hope this helps :)
Isn't the actions of "actuations" the process of the shutter openeing and closing and the curtains opening and closeing? Is this not mechanical? It isn't the sensor that fails is the shutter and curtains that fail.
I personally woudnt think that anyone on this site would take enough photos to experience the issue, but when purchasing a second hand new camera it is worth noting.
Oh BTW happy for you to explain it in your words? That is unless you think it doesn't happen.
Here are a couple of links that go into it in more detail.
http://www.digital-photography-school.com/actuations-shutter-count-someday-our-cameras-will-die
http://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/3847/what-are-shutter-actuations
@chewyteeth Historically the camera companies bring out the new line of camera toward the end of the year, now having said that last year (mmm maybe the year before) the bought out the 1100D and i dont think that changed the price of the 550D, so with that in mind I dont think a new line of the 600D serires will change the cost of the 550d. I do think it will change the cost of the 600D.
Ooomph in terms of MP: That is fine, it's nice to be able to do heavy cropping, but I can live without it and large prints are a non issue for me.
"Nice to have" features: Video,improvements in, or the mere existence of, live view, faster fps. I can use my nikon for video but I rarely do anyway. Live view would be nice but could live without. Faster fps would be cool, but given my p&s is 0.7 fps even these older DSLRs will outdo it comfortably.
"Ease of use" features: People apparently coped just fine at one point without them, I think I could manage too ;)
I take it there are internal, picturey capturey things, that are improved in some way? (I apologise if the technical jargon is overwhelming anyone)