I was asked earlier today if I could do a family portrait session for my aunt. She asked what I charged and the second question she asked was if I put the images on the CD. I told her I wasn't for sure yet, but would figure it all out soon.
I am going to charge a higher sitting fee with a low mark-up on prints. With that, should I include one or two prints? 8x10?
I am starting my business, but setting up prices are killing me. In my area it's anywhere between $150-$400 depending on what is included. So as for a sitting fee, I'm not at all positive about what to do.
This is what I have right now and need opinions:
$150 - 1hr 30min session, up to four people and pet, one location of your choice, free 8x10 print
$250 - 2hr session, up to four people and pet, two locations of your choice, free 8x10 print
$300 - 2hr session, up to four people and pet, two locations of your choice, two free 8x10 prints
*additional person and/or pet, $50
Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the CD and giving them rights to print anywhere. The only way I would give them a CD is for them to put on Facebook to share and they would be low-res with the watermark. I would rather them buy prints from me than anything.
I go to WHCC to get my printing done. What prices do you charge for your prints? I'm trying to get a baseline started and not sure if my pricing is adequate.
I know it is not what you want to hear - but I would not make a family member pay either - I would think of it as portfolio building and think that the goodwill generated would get me more business in the long run if she is really wrapped with the photos and tells all her friends.
When I was choosing a photographer to do family photos, it was between one photographer whose photos that I liked better, or another one whose photos were still good, but also gave a CD. I chose the latter. Just saying that you might have more business by giving the CD. But, if you're not a fan, then you're not a fan!
I would never charge family members for a photography session.
How long have you been photographing people professionally? I think your print prices are way too high for just starting off. I am also starting a photography business on the side and i started by telling my clients that i am still building my portfolio, so i charged very low. My first client was $50 for one hour and i gave her over 50 images on a cd. They loved their photos and i got experience wih people. I dont feel comfortable charging more than $200 total (cd included) until i have a solid portfolio.
I'm not a professional and have no advice on setting prices, but I did notice something after doing the math. Your last two packages are identical with the exception of an additional 8x10, but there's a $50 price difference. That would mean you are charging $50 for the second 'free' 8x10 when your 8x10 price is listed at only $40. Just an observation. :)
In Jessops they have studio charges starting at £25 and for that you get 1 7x5 photo and that image on CD. If you want more than 1 photo it goes up in price - 10 images is £45, 30 images is £95 and 40 8x6 prints and a photobook is £185. All images are on a CD and most of them are 7x5 prints (unless otherwise stated). It is for a 30 minute studio session. I would not charge family either and have even donated photogifts to a raffle.
I don't understand the not giving a CD either. My wedding photographer gave us all the shots on a CD... plus we had a package of printed ones. His thought was... why do I need to keep them? They mean nothing to me, they don't "belong" to me, as such. He got my business. Prices, I can't comment, I have no idea and wouldn't pay for professional family shots... cos I'm just like that lol.
Don't give your photography away for free. I'm not saying charge family an arm and a leg. Would you do that work for free for someone else, or even pay them to do the work?
If you factor in all the time to travel, set up, shoot, take down, travel, post process, travel to the print shop to pick up prints, possibly have to wait for reprints if they aren't up to par, pay for prints, travel back, ship prints to customer, You are more than likely going to end up spending a decent amount just on gas and buying the prints...all to do the work for "free".
I say ask them to cover your costs at a minimum. Gas, prints. Time is valuable and worth money. By not charging people much for a session, you are undervaluing others time and your own. Family may be different, but IMO, not by much.
If I may, I would like to use Jacquelines $50/hour model for 50 images. I am going to be assuming you post processed them at least minimally.
Say she drives 10 miles across town to the shoot site and her car gets 20 miles to the gallon (so return trip included) $4.00/ gallon plus 30 mins travel time to and from (15 min/ trip, factor in traffic, lights, etc)
Since you are just starting out, lets say you don't have any equipment to set up like light stands, reflectors, strobes or backdrops. So aside from grabbing your camera out of the bag and turning it on, no set up time.
During the shoot you take around 150 images, thats over 2 a second but you never know so you overshoot. Now you get home and you have to sit down at your computer and choose which ones you think will work. Lets say 1 hour to cull them down to 50 useable images. (2 hours invested so far, not counting the travel time, yet.)
Minimally processing those shots may take some time but lets say 10 mins per shot to tone, contrast, sharpen, straighten, experiement with levels a bit, etc. (to me minimal processing) 10 mins/shot x 50 shots = 8 hours 20 mins. (10 hours 20 mins so far)
Save those shots to a CD so another 10 mins to write to the CD/label said CD plus, say a $1, for the CD and case.
So for 50 shots, you would have (at a minimum) 11 hours and spent $5.00. So you are actually getting paid $45 dollars for the shoot and that works out to $4.09 / hour for your time.
Now factor in insurance (what happens if someone slips while you were directing them to pose?) equipment cost (lens/body (rent or buy) computer, SD card, processing software, color correction software) car insurance, wear and tear, time away from family so you can concentrate on processing.
If you are using the family excuse, then you are saying it would be ok for them to hire you at their business and pay you less than minimum wage (US) . If you are willing to work for less than than minimum wage, I will put you to work and give you a job, just don't tell the authorities.
As far as a CD goes. If it is full size originals, once you hand that over, you are giving them the rights to your photos, essentially. They can use them however they want and you don't get a cent. If it is web optimized thumbnails or small sizes, well then you are controlling it a bit more, but still giving away any future profits from prints.
Do you have a working relationship with your lab? Is your monitor color corrected to match their printers so you know exactly what the final product will look like? I'm sure they would be willing to work with you if they know you will bring business in to them. I would charge at least 1.5 x the cost they charge you for prints. You have to go get them and get them to the client. That markup may or may not pay for those expenses so I would factor that in to your prices.
@shadesofgrey personally, if you are doing a shoot for a family member and their kids, you should not charge them. let them give you money as a thank you if they want. i just feel it is pretty heartless and petty to charge blood. so yes i would and have done shoots for friend and family at no charge.
@jsilver@kellc@jreyna Where do you draw the line at "family?" Aunts, uncles, cousins? What about step-children? What about your step-daughter-in-law's sister? It's a very sticky wicket, if you ask me.
@dolittlemd family is family no matter what branch of the tree they come from. Just seems cold hearted to me to charge people for something as simple as a little 1-3 hour shoot.
I have a huge family - massive, especially if we are including step-daughter-in-law's sisters, second cousins twice removed, step-children, etc. Our last family reunion - 250 people showed up and we all lamented what a small turnout it was. If I shot for them for free, I would end up straight in the poorhouse. It's a nice idea but it's not realistic, nor is it financially viable if someone is trying to turn this into a business.
@jsilver That is fine. I simply wanted to point out that it will actually cost you to do a shoot for them. If you feel that it is something you can afford, either as a gift to family or as a portfolio builder, then by all means, don't let me stop you.
Personally, if they know I am trying to legitimize myself and have heartburn with covering the basic costs, i.e. printing and gas.....then they can't see past their nose. That, IMO, isn't too much to ask and it is way way less than they would be charged otherwise, even if they found someone just starting out (just like you and me) on craigslist or other similar sites. Then you truly are doing it for free. You aren't out any money and that is free, as far as my pocketbook is concerned. You gain the experience and the portfolio shot, they get what they wanted for what most people pay for coffee in a week and everyone is happy. Just my two cents.
@jsilver Just read through your profile....would you paint murals for all of your family for free? Say a baby room or ceiling, something substantial. To me 1-3 hour photo shoot is substantial work.
@shadesofgrey they pay for there own prints but i guess losing $1 for a CD is rough. i did a shoot for my friend and his fiance and they were so thrilled i would do it for free they came to my town to make it easier.
@jsilver I didn't include prints in my example because I was using Jaqueline's scenario....and no a losing a dollar isn't rough, but I put that in there as an example. Even when you are doing it for "free" it is costing you. And you are making well below a minimum wage, let alone a living wage, before prints, insurance, affording the gear you own or need to own to actually make it work.
If its on the side and you don't need to live on it, fine, take the gig. But, to me, that implies you aren't worth much. I don't think you could have bought your camera if you had gotten paid a decent rate for your artwork, could you? Maybe you could have, I sure couldn't afford mine that way.
I'm sure that if you are out of a job, you would think twice about taking one that pays $4 an hour and hold out for one that pays more money. Why should we do that for photography? Because it is so accessible to the masses? I'll buy some paint, tell everyone I'll paint their murals for pennies on the dollar and drive the price down of the other muralists around me. Can I paint? not really, and no where near as well as they can but simply because I'm cheaper, I will cost them/you business, for my crap versus your works of art.
Photography is the same thing but because there is not tactial presence for processing (physical darkroom) , only sitting in front of a computer, people dismiss it as quick and easy, as irrelevant.
How much time to do spend drawing up a design based on the clients needs/wants? Refining it? Preparing brushes, paints? Maybe buying a new color or brush that you need for that specific job? Setting up? Cleaning brushes and equipment? I bet that unless its family you factor all that into your price because you need to make money doing that to remain viable. Same goes here.
I'm not trying to get into an argument, simply pointing out that too many photographers undervalue their work.
@shadesofgrey unless I am mistaken the op is quite young (very talented of course) and still in the portfolio building stage so I would not be charging a close relative, and hope the goodwill and word of mouth got me more paid gigs - as I said in my original post.
@shadesofgrey actually a friend of mine and his wife asked me if i would paint a mural for their babies room. the wall was 15'x8'. i did the whole wall winnie the pooh and designed the background myself. the job cost me about $75 in supplies and took around 30 hours to complete. I charged them $0.00 because i have been friends with him since first grade.
i do factor in for materials(new only not my existing brushes) but if i ever start to factor the cost for gas or time for cleaning my brush than shoot me.
all i wanted to do was express in the beginning of this was, i dont think you should charge family.
This is what I don't want to happen with my newly started business:
If I shot this family session for free and they go around telling all of their friends about me because they loved the work produced, they're going to expect their session for the same price: free.
How does that help me? Wouldn't it just hurt me in the long run?
I don't want to drive, setup, take the photos, drive, take the time to process the photos, print the photos, drive to get the photos, and then deliver the photos to them for free.
If they were running their own business, I would be expected to pay them and I would pay them the same amount the next guy paid.
I really don't understand this whole sugar-coated business with family and friends. I really don't.
If they're expecting it, then they're going to want it and if they don't like it, then they're going somewhere else. And I'm going to lose out on business because I didn't want to shoot so and so's portraits for free like my aunt.
@shadesofgrey you have a lot of excellent points. Thank you.
Before i took clients, i offere free sessions to about 10 different friends/family members. I was only about to get two scheduled sessions out of that. Just because you do it free for your aunt it doesnt mean you will do it free for every single person that knows you are starting a photograph business. You cannot be "starting a business" and want to charge people over $100 on sitting fees (or whateer it was...on my phone so it is a pain to check) and then outrageous prices in printing costs. You could look at the free/inexpensive sessions as a college class. You have to do ALL the work AND also pay for your credits, but you are learning, which is the whole point.
@shadesofgrey I believe the op is 17? I'm sure she lives at home with mom and dad and a free gig for her aunt will not destroy her photographic or economic life.
@jreyna@jsilver@kellc Yes, she is 17, but why shouldn't it enhance her photographic or economic life? Nobody said anything about destroying it. I do know my money was tight at 17 though.
Also since age is apparently a factor, when would be a good time to start charging? If you are way more talented than me but I'm older and have been doing it longer, does that automatically warrant a higher payment?
I'll agree, family is a sticky situation as mentioned before. I'm not negating that factor.
Do it or don't, but be careful of undervaluing yourself and your work. It can have ramifications that affect you and others past the present "gig". Thats what I was trying to get at.
Jason: I was never ranting, simply trying to pose questions that hadn't been thought of or brought up. If you took that as argumentative, well you were wrong, I was treating it as a civilized discussion. All the questions I have posed were serious and thought through. I was trying to get the reader (and whomever I was replying to specifically) to think about it in another light. Discussions need two sides to exist. We both don't feel the other is completely right and I'm fine with that.
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Second, I never understood the whole not giving a CD to someone and I have actually received. more business by giving people the disc.
How long have you been photographing people professionally? I think your print prices are way too high for just starting off. I am also starting a photography business on the side and i started by telling my clients that i am still building my portfolio, so i charged very low. My first client was $50 for one hour and i gave her over 50 images on a cd. They loved their photos and i got experience wih people. I dont feel comfortable charging more than $200 total (cd included) until i have a solid portfolio.
You should do it for free for your aunt.
Check this link out. It will help explain the pricing behind photography sessions. Yes, it is wedding oriented but it still applies.
http://365project.org/discuss/articles/5092/why-pro-photogs-charge-lots-of
Don't give your photography away for free. I'm not saying charge family an arm and a leg. Would you do that work for free for someone else, or even pay them to do the work?
If you factor in all the time to travel, set up, shoot, take down, travel, post process, travel to the print shop to pick up prints, possibly have to wait for reprints if they aren't up to par, pay for prints, travel back, ship prints to customer, You are more than likely going to end up spending a decent amount just on gas and buying the prints...all to do the work for "free".
I say ask them to cover your costs at a minimum. Gas, prints. Time is valuable and worth money. By not charging people much for a session, you are undervaluing others time and your own. Family may be different, but IMO, not by much.
If I may, I would like to use Jacquelines $50/hour model for 50 images. I am going to be assuming you post processed them at least minimally.
Say she drives 10 miles across town to the shoot site and her car gets 20 miles to the gallon (so return trip included) $4.00/ gallon plus 30 mins travel time to and from (15 min/ trip, factor in traffic, lights, etc)
Since you are just starting out, lets say you don't have any equipment to set up like light stands, reflectors, strobes or backdrops. So aside from grabbing your camera out of the bag and turning it on, no set up time.
During the shoot you take around 150 images, thats over 2 a second but you never know so you overshoot. Now you get home and you have to sit down at your computer and choose which ones you think will work. Lets say 1 hour to cull them down to 50 useable images. (2 hours invested so far, not counting the travel time, yet.)
Minimally processing those shots may take some time but lets say 10 mins per shot to tone, contrast, sharpen, straighten, experiement with levels a bit, etc. (to me minimal processing) 10 mins/shot x 50 shots = 8 hours 20 mins. (10 hours 20 mins so far)
Save those shots to a CD so another 10 mins to write to the CD/label said CD plus, say a $1, for the CD and case.
So for 50 shots, you would have (at a minimum) 11 hours and spent $5.00. So you are actually getting paid $45 dollars for the shoot and that works out to $4.09 / hour for your time.
Now factor in insurance (what happens if someone slips while you were directing them to pose?) equipment cost (lens/body (rent or buy) computer, SD card, processing software, color correction software) car insurance, wear and tear, time away from family so you can concentrate on processing.
If you are using the family excuse, then you are saying it would be ok for them to hire you at their business and pay you less than minimum wage (US) . If you are willing to work for less than than minimum wage, I will put you to work and give you a job, just don't tell the authorities.
As far as a CD goes. If it is full size originals, once you hand that over, you are giving them the rights to your photos, essentially. They can use them however they want and you don't get a cent. If it is web optimized thumbnails or small sizes, well then you are controlling it a bit more, but still giving away any future profits from prints.
Do you have a working relationship with your lab? Is your monitor color corrected to match their printers so you know exactly what the final product will look like? I'm sure they would be willing to work with you if they know you will bring business in to them. I would charge at least 1.5 x the cost they charge you for prints. You have to go get them and get them to the client. That markup may or may not pay for those expenses so I would factor that in to your prices.
Here's an interesting read...just for giggles.
http://www.kristenboothblog.net/2012/01/for-brides-why-wedding-photographers-are-so-expensive/
Pay particular attention to Jennifer Potter, Jinx and Weng's replies here. They all do this professionally.
http://365project.org/discuss/general/10362/a-thousand-dollars-for-2-hours
Again, I know they are wedding oriented, but the theory behind it still applies.
Personally, if they know I am trying to legitimize myself and have heartburn with covering the basic costs, i.e. printing and gas.....then they can't see past their nose. That, IMO, isn't too much to ask and it is way way less than they would be charged otherwise, even if they found someone just starting out (just like you and me) on craigslist or other similar sites. Then you truly are doing it for free. You aren't out any money and that is free, as far as my pocketbook is concerned. You gain the experience and the portfolio shot, they get what they wanted for what most people pay for coffee in a week and everyone is happy. Just my two cents.
Serious question.
If its on the side and you don't need to live on it, fine, take the gig. But, to me, that implies you aren't worth much. I don't think you could have bought your camera if you had gotten paid a decent rate for your artwork, could you? Maybe you could have, I sure couldn't afford mine that way.
I'm sure that if you are out of a job, you would think twice about taking one that pays $4 an hour and hold out for one that pays more money. Why should we do that for photography? Because it is so accessible to the masses? I'll buy some paint, tell everyone I'll paint their murals for pennies on the dollar and drive the price down of the other muralists around me. Can I paint? not really, and no where near as well as they can but simply because I'm cheaper, I will cost them/you business, for my crap versus your works of art.
Photography is the same thing but because there is not tactial presence for processing (physical darkroom) , only sitting in front of a computer, people dismiss it as quick and easy, as irrelevant.
How much time to do spend drawing up a design based on the clients needs/wants? Refining it? Preparing brushes, paints? Maybe buying a new color or brush that you need for that specific job? Setting up? Cleaning brushes and equipment? I bet that unless its family you factor all that into your price because you need to make money doing that to remain viable. Same goes here.
I'm not trying to get into an argument, simply pointing out that too many photographers undervalue their work.
i do factor in for materials(new only not my existing brushes) but if i ever start to factor the cost for gas or time for cleaning my brush than shoot me.
all i wanted to do was express in the beginning of this was, i dont think you should charge family.
take your rant somewhere else shades of grey.
and yes you are arguing.
If I shot this family session for free and they go around telling all of their friends about me because they loved the work produced, they're going to expect their session for the same price: free.
How does that help me? Wouldn't it just hurt me in the long run?
I don't want to drive, setup, take the photos, drive, take the time to process the photos, print the photos, drive to get the photos, and then deliver the photos to them for free.
If they were running their own business, I would be expected to pay them and I would pay them the same amount the next guy paid.
I really don't understand this whole sugar-coated business with family and friends. I really don't.
If they're expecting it, then they're going to want it and if they don't like it, then they're going somewhere else. And I'm going to lose out on business because I didn't want to shoot so and so's portraits for free like my aunt.
@shadesofgrey you have a lot of excellent points. Thank you.
Also since age is apparently a factor, when would be a good time to start charging? If you are way more talented than me but I'm older and have been doing it longer, does that automatically warrant a higher payment?
I'll agree, family is a sticky situation as mentioned before. I'm not negating that factor.
Do it or don't, but be careful of undervaluing yourself and your work. It can have ramifications that affect you and others past the present "gig". Thats what I was trying to get at.
Jason: I was never ranting, simply trying to pose questions that hadn't been thought of or brought up. If you took that as argumentative, well you were wrong, I was treating it as a civilized discussion. All the questions I have posed were serious and thought through. I was trying to get the reader (and whomever I was replying to specifically) to think about it in another light. Discussions need two sides to exist. We both don't feel the other is completely right and I'm fine with that.