I get very frustrated when I see absolutely stunning shots that don't make the Top Twenty. Two of my friends have taken fantastic shots of kingfishers that haven't made TT while a robin shot which is very easy makes it. What is wrong with people who don't appreciate the effort it takes to find a kingfisher let alone get a good shot of one. Good kingfisher shots should ALWAYS make TT in my view. What do you think?
I'm reasonably certain that the person who took the "easy" robin shot would disagree with you. As I'm sure you know the Top Twenty are selected based on a combination of algorithm and 'magic monkeys' with a dash of conspiracy theory thrown in for good measure, not on whether the photographer has put in any effort or just been lazy, which you seem to be suggesting here.
Rosie, the TT is somewhat of a popularity contest, sort of like in Facebook where the most likes wins. That's just the way it is, and I really can't see how it can be otherwise without structured "challenges" that might control the number of photos selected to be "judged" and professional adjudication.
What do I think? I think you are a little too hung up on titles and accolades. Who knows why one person likes one photo better than another? And does anyone even know the parameters that are used to pick the top twenty. The picture you posted of the kingfisher was lovely but there are lots of lovely photos on 365 and just because a photo is difficult to take doesn't necessarily make it "better". I've gone to a lot of trouble to take some rather crumby photos and then just stumbled easily onto shots that IMO are a lot better.
In my opinion most of us would be better to worry less about the popular page, the trending page, or the top twenty and just get out there and make photos we like as best we can.
@gardencat agree. It does seem to be a popularity contest, but have decided that I will continue to take pictures I like to take and ignore the popularity issue. Sort of feels like being Back in high school, of which I wasn't in the popular group then either lol
@joemuli You are so funny! I hope you are well. I'll be in Australia for a month along the best beaches in the world, Gold Coast and Surfers Paradise especially, so I hope I can get some beach shots to rival your best. Stay safe.
I can honestly say, I have struggled with the TT page and wanting to take a picture that makes it there. For a while I thought getting more followers was the key and concerned myself with trying to "build up a following"....but when I rationally sit back and remember why I am here...it is to learn and become a better photographer. I have to remind myself of that. i have learned so much from this site and all of you who have taken the time to help me and give me feedback. I am thankful and appreciative of that! That is truly whats important to me. I agree with @shirleydawn and have to remind myself that I am well past high school!!
I don't think how hard or easy a shot was to take is really relevant to how great it turns out?
Although, one problem with the top 20: I don't know how it's worked out, but from the sound of this thread, it's dependent on number of comments and favs? In that case it gives a disproportionate advantage to people who've been using the site for a long time and have more followers - maybe there could be a formula that would regulate this so that the best and most popular photos of people with few followers have a chance as well? (as in, working out popularity in comparison to how many followers a person has)
Overall though dont think there is much point being too invested in making the top 20 or not - sharing our work should be an individual adventure not a popularity contest surely:) And there will always be an element of unpredictable subjectivity to whatever art people love most
I've been on this site for 6 years and I still don't know how a picture gets to the TT, am thrilled when a picture of mine makes it to the Trending or Popular pages, but have come to the place where the joy of seeing the world through my camera's lens is what keeps me coming back and posting my pictures. I love the community and the friends I've made around the world more than the "feathers in my photo cap" so to speak. Yes, it feels good when your shot gets recognition but judging what makes a shot worthy of the TT gets so subjective. A fellow photographer said to me at photo club this week, "Take the picture because you like it, not because it's going to please a judge" in reference to a competition going on right now. Very wise words! So in response to your observation, yes, there are MANY shots here that deserve to make the TT but most will probably not be on it. So be sure you tell the person you think their picture deserves to be there and give them a fav! (which I'm sure you do)
I agree with @gardencat and @olivetreeann. While I'm sure it is nice to see your picture in the TT, that isn't my motivation in joining this site. Although there are themes and competitions, it seems to me that these work more as a spark for creativity than anything else. It's lovely when people make nice comments and fav pictures but a "good" photo is subjective and I'm more interested in taking pictures that make me happy than getting into the TT (not that I'd be unhappy if I did!). @rosiekind I agree that that kingfisher shot is lovely and your friend should be proud of it, isn't that worth more than a space in an online chart?
@byrdlip I thought that was the case. To clear this up, the TT is purely on the number of fav's a person has achieved on their shot, the popular page is the tricky one based on magic monkeys and algorithms. @rosiekind I agree that Sarah's kingfisher shots are amazing and would have loved to have seen it reach the TT but surely photography, like other art forms, is a personal and subjective matter. What I love as art you may well hate but it makes it no more or less valid. Everyone is different with different tastes so this is a subject that can never be agreed upon.
Are you talking this weeks TT? There is no robin? No 19 nearest to a robin is something else and words with image state it was hard to captute...... sarahs image is stunning too. Some of the best photography on here is hardly ever seen....
you realize the irony of this is that the image you feel should make the TT wasn't even eligible for the TT 305 (only images with the most favs as of last Wednesday would have made it there)... and by drawing attention to the image here, there's a chance it will make it to TT 306 :)
I just can't fathom why I have never made a TT, myself. I take immeasurably good photos that are most often crafted in thought for days prior to applying painstaking physical duress in order to properly position my Samsung phone (sometimes I use my camera) just right at the right moment. Why, I even have my local weatherman on IM so I can make sure to get that light ray perfectly positioned during the 0900 hour. I'm certainly perplexed. What do you think?
Interesting debate that and I think Rosie was brave to raise it. Agree it is the quality of a shot but can also agree that some effort does go into getting the shot, not just technical know how but research into the subject and basically sitting to see what it does. I am afraid with Wildlife it never does do what you want so the hours of frustration is never seen in that one shot.
This is still a great site but sometimes it does get a bit much to dedicate time to the unseen photo. Good luck to you all!!
Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. I'm sure a lot of us have learnt a great deal from viewing other people's images and I know that I certainly have. I have also made some wonderful friends and I am even going with some of them to Chicago to meet fellow 365ers which will be great. I think I have certainly been torn off a strip and will now keep my mouth firmly shut although I still hope you will all view @pixiemac's latest kingfisher shot which is fantastic and give it the benefit of your opinion.
An interesting debate with many valid points. May I raise my hand tentatively though and say I would love to see one of my images on the Top Twenty. I will be quiet again now ..
You started a very interesting thread Rosie. I've never paid much attention to the TT and just took the time to admired the photos for the awesome images that they are. But this week (for the first time), I seemed to hold a place on that list with many other very talented photographers and am honored. I hope you continue to be passionate about things that are important to you. :)
@olivetreeann Agreed. Photography can kind of be an isolated activity, and we are working from our creative and technical parts so we are tender about putting our work out there and seeing how others respond. When my tender heart comes out, I understand your concern @rosiekind and I can say that the thought crosses my mind occasionally, so thanks for being brave and sharing about that. Then I remind myself that my joy comes from first, being out there observing and finding unique images to collect, and second from sharing it with others and seeing their work. As mama use to say, "It all comes out in the wash." @padlock I have yet to get a good kingfisher photo... congratulations!
@rosiekind don't 'keep your mouth shut', please. It's a discussion forum – disagreements are allowed!
To me, it seems utterly mad to say that photos of [a certain subject] should always make the Top Twenty. But if that's your view, that's fine – and you shouldn't feel like you're somehow not allowed to voice it.
thank you Rosie for starting a very robust and informative discussion...i think you have put into words something that concerns you and you're obviously not alone in your bafflement of how the numbers work...all i can understand is that it's an algorithym which is just a mathematical formula...Ross @Scrivna , the founder of 365 has explained on here somewhere how it all works...it's just numbers in relation to other numbers in relation to other numbers...so when i understood it's all numbers...and in no way personal...when i understood that... i then relaxed, and got on with making pictures of what makes ME happy, or proud or makes me laugh, or is a personal challenge met...i make my images personal and i let the numbers take care of themselves...they're really not important...i have no idea how one of my images ended up on TT as i sure wouldn't have put it up there...just numbers....the thrill I now get, is being in touch with people who's work i admire and of who's skill i am in awe... and i get to view images i would never have seen...from places i'll never go to...when these people leave encouraging messages about why they like my work...or they share their ideas on how it could be better....that's the beauty of 365 for me...
great topic...if you don't question you don't get answers...maybe Ross @Scrivna can expalin how it all works? :o)
@bigugly ...LOL!... :o) @frankhymus ...LOL! (happy ANZAC day Frank... :o) ) @dianen yep...you nailed it!,,, :o) @shirleydawn Lol...me either!... :o) @padlock ...never captured a kingfisher...well done !... :o) @novab ...that's the thrill i mean...of being alongside the amazing, awesome images that others produce...honoured is a good word... :o) @padlock ...none of your effort is wasted...ever...it only makes you more experienced...i'm sorry if you're disappointed...but it's in no way a waste because you have an awesome image along with the memories of getting that image...no waste at all i believe... :o) @olivetreeann ...wise words... :o)
@olivetreeann nicely put. Rosie, don't worry about expressing your thoughts. We have a wonderful global community. One nice thread is the Favorite FAV of someone each week and that is a great forum for highlighting the work of others. So many ways to appreciate our fellow photographers.
@maree_sanderson Extremely well put reply Maree, agree with you totally except I have managed to photograph Kingfishers, but never managed ( but not particularly bothered about it), to get on to the TT, either with enough Favs or an awesome arrangement of pixels. Belated congratulations on your TT placing.
@gardencat well said Joanne. I just take photos because I like to. I havent masterd the manual settings on my camera yet (lack of time and patience) and I am so excited when something pops up on my computer that I am satisfied with.
I'm happiest when almost anything that isn't birds or flowers makes the top twenty. Obviously, however, they are extremely popular subjects; evidently, much more popular than all other subjects. I've nothing against birds&flowers, mind you--I just wish they had their own separate top twenty category so as to provide greater variety to the popular page.
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In my opinion most of us would be better to worry less about the popular page, the trending page, or the top twenty and just get out there and make photos we like as best we can.
If see a good image that appeals to you, then you should tell the maker.
Although, one problem with the top 20: I don't know how it's worked out, but from the sound of this thread, it's dependent on number of comments and favs? In that case it gives a disproportionate advantage to people who've been using the site for a long time and have more followers - maybe there could be a formula that would regulate this so that the best and most popular photos of people with few followers have a chance as well? (as in, working out popularity in comparison to how many followers a person has)
Overall though dont think there is much point being too invested in making the top 20 or not - sharing our work should be an individual adventure not a popularity contest surely:) And there will always be an element of unpredictable subjectivity to whatever art people love most
http://365project.org/blog/behind-the-scenes-of-365-project
This is still a great site but sometimes it does get a bit much to dedicate time to the unseen photo. Good luck to you all!!
To me, it seems utterly mad to say that photos of [a certain subject] should always make the Top Twenty. But if that's your view, that's fine – and you shouldn't feel like you're somehow not allowed to voice it.
great topic...if you don't question you don't get answers...maybe Ross @Scrivna can expalin how it all works? :o)
@bigugly ...LOL!... :o) @frankhymus ...LOL! (happy ANZAC day Frank... :o) )
@dianen yep...you nailed it!,,, :o)
@shirleydawn Lol...me either!... :o)
@padlock ...never captured a kingfisher...well done !... :o)
@novab ...that's the thrill i mean...of being alongside the amazing, awesome images that others produce...honoured is a good word... :o) @padlock ...none of your effort is wasted...ever...it only makes you more experienced...i'm sorry if you're disappointed...but it's in no way a waste because you have an awesome image along with the memories of getting that image...no waste at all i believe... :o)
@olivetreeann ...wise words... :o)
@darylo yes, the favourite fav thread is great and everyone I've met through this site so far has been incredibly kind and supportive.
@manek43509 I completely agree, discussion boards are much better when they prompt actual discussion