If you know someone who should be added to this discussion please tag them. @jocasta@taffy@salza@anazad511@sparkle @swilde@iqscotland@lensenvy@aliha@jantan@jantan@mikegifford@httpgeffed @northy@taffy@summerfield@kwind@lstasel@darylo@frankhymus@panthora@anazad511
So it has been decided to start the Camera Settings Challenge from scratch. My thought is to have a slightly different name but enough to recognize the connection. Also the approach would need to be (especially the beginning challenges) of assuming they are brand new to using camera settings.
I’m thinking it would be good to have the challenges actually planned with assigned challenge/hosts to make sure it doesn’t get too advanced too quickly. Perhaps that would be the case only in the beginning and then the baton is passed to the winner or whoever they ask to host. I don’t know if that makes it too complicated.
Should we come up with a list & order? If so what do you think it should be? What about something like the below to start? Please share your opinion!
1) ISO – basics
2) 2) Aperture /starting with priority
3) 3) Shutter Speed/Starting with Shutter Speed Priority
4) 4) Manual – starting with a specific setting such as aperture f8 and shutter at 125
5) 5) Manual – learning to make adjustments
@myhrhelper I'd mention, somewhere, the much maligned P mode. It's a great teaching tool for "equivalent" exposures as you scroll through them.
I am sure I will be jumped all over, but I'd say that Manual Metering (4)should not make a first cut of the list. And by 5) do you mean Manual Focus adjustments, or exposure compensation? Both are useful for sure and should be understood. If your lens supports easy manual focus over-ride. A good number do not.
@myhrhelper@frankhymus
I think the list looks promising. One thought for #4 is that the idea would be to simply set it at those settings with an ISO of XX (e.g., 200) and have people take one photo. Then analyze the photo and re-take it by resetting the shutter to faster or slower. Analyze again. Then re-take. The point is that if we have them start with a particular setting, they need to be walked through how to analyze and decide what to do as much as learning about settings specifically. I wonder if they are not Ace members and can only post one shot, asking them to do a series of shots and then choose one to post, but explain in the narrative what they had tried and what ended up working to have their final photo. I'd also maybe specify conditions somehow -- like 'during the day with reasonable light' or "a stationary object" or something like that. Sorry to go on...I think this is such a great challenge/theme for beginners and remember when I was trying to figure this stuff out on my own.
@frankhymus See that is why I have you in this discussion. I think (but open to other suggestions) we should all put together a list in a logical order of what should come next. I did that beginning list quickly without much thought. What I meant in number 5 to teach how to tweek it by going up/down on shutter speed or aperture in manual. I think there are other topics that should be added on focus, P, white balance etc.
@frankhymus Perhaps you would want to put together a logical starting list and others in this discussion will put their list or tweek yours. Just a thought
@taffy I agree - that is a great idea. I am not an ACE member. What I have done in the past is post a photo but I choose a date that I didn't have a photo in. So for example the photo may have been taken January 2, 2015 but I will post it January 2, 2011 This site lets you do that. Then in the future I would delete those photos.
@myhrhelper Spot metering was one of the easiest and most useful techniques that I've found. I thought it would be so hard, and it's essentially a button, but really makes a difference for lighting. Same thing for 'spot focusing' but that was (and remains) harder for me to figure out how to set up. Once set up, it's fine and easy...
@myhrhelper Just a thought, but is there a way to simply repeat the previous challenges in the order they began? Many of them already have the "intros" to the challenge, and they can be rerun. I like "Camera Settings Challenge" as a title for the challenge as it clearly has more to do with learning a "button" or "choice" in the menu to use that one might not even know it exists. I have to admit, I was getting very confused when the technique started to become a wider focus of this one--not that they don't relate, but I do like the idea that all the features of our cameras (and all kinds--there could even be one for phones!) can be explored and why they are a good idea to use in manual or assisted ways. I do like your beginning list, though! I have not looked back on the #1-now challenges, but I bet they will serve well for having the scripts available. If I get some time, I'll see what pops up in a search! You are so good to start this all over again--It was my only challenge I could not wait to participate in each time it rolled around!
@darylo I think if we make a list some would be repeated in topic but whoever hosts could/would adapt it - to use the same material or not. There may be some topics to add and some not as critical. I'm open to ideas. I remember the excitement of learning a new setting. When it started I made the "big" purchase to get a DSLR, it was a lot of money for me at the time and I wanted to make sure I learn how to properly use it. I never took a formal class but I think the feedback was better than a class would ever be.
@myhrhelper Totally agree. I have still never taken a class! I love to say "I'm self-taught" and I owe a lot of it to this challenge. I was just thinking we may not have to reinvent any wheels if there is material to use (especially as we start out). I really wish there was a way to use something other than the "discussions" board for challenges as it's hard to find everything! I've asked Ross (and emailed him) to see if challenges could be run in a different format (especially with time differences and the frequency that someone may visit a topic--it gets lost in all the other discussion--then there is the "naming" issue. I've proposed to him a "calendar" view that allows site participants to use a "form" to fill out name of challenge, the particulars, the tags, dates, reminder tabs" and that way, when someone goes to the calendar view of challenges, a link will show everything! It would make some of this easier. I gave up on most challenges because of the difficulty finding them after they started (I'd forget a tag, or the rules, or the beginning and ending dates). It just took up so much time! That's why I'm thinking of seeing if we can find what existts. Sorry, way too long of a response. :)
@darylo That is another reason why we need people who participate to put their photo in the discussion. It keeps the discussion at the top. Also we will try to have a lsit of partiipants and copy/paste them in each challenge and then keep adding new people. I agree it would be nice if there was another way to communicate . I'm using an old photo page to communicate this.
@myhrhelper Perhaps it's best to start it all off with a discussion/summary of the "three leg stool" of exposure, aperture shutter speed and ISO. The first two controlling the amount of light that reaches the sensor, the last how strong the resulting signal on the senor is amplified, at least for "digital" cameras. Aperture number is often a stumbling point for some, as it goes down the aperture widens and more light gets in, and further, it doesn't do down "linearly" like shutter speed. It's tough to explain without a bit of geometry, and many just clam up when you mention that. :)
Then after that first explanation, I'll write it if you want but please edit it to keep it simple, I'd go for "P" metering, showing people the many "equivalent" exposures. At the same ISO, halve the shutter (make it twice as fast) and the aperture only goes up (narrows) by 1.4, the square root of "double" - area (controlling the amount of light getting in) is proportional to the *square* of the diameter. 1/200 and f/8 is "equivalent" to 1/400 and f/5.6, for example.
Then choose from a "wide" aperture in P mode and compare it to a "narrow" aperture, and notice the DoF issues. A good way then to introduce "A" (Av) mode and why one would choose it.
And likewise take a set of "P" exposures of a moving object, you will get motion blur with slower shutters, and you can introduce "S" mode.
Then a set of exposures in your favorite mode, now P, A or S at different ISO speeds to introduce "low light" shooting, and increasing the ISO. And why you do that as a last resort, the concept of digital noise.
Next, a discussion of "safe" hand-held shutter speeds, and slower than that how you get "camera shake" (different from motion blur). And then a discussion of Image Stabilization and what it means to have two (three, four?) stops of safety... And what is a "stop" anyway? All together, that will get you to a discussion as to WHY many people use high ISO in low light, being lazy and not breaking out the tripod, or trying to do sports shooting (need to stop the motion, kids sports especially for the mums and dads) at night or indoors.
With all that under your belt, then I think you can branch out in a number of ways. My favorite next would be the AUTO ISO with sensitivity parameters. Not all makes have the nice feature, and P&S cameras usually don't at all, Nikon DSLRs seem to have the most comprehensive where in "A" mode you set the slowest shutter and the highest ISO you will allow for the fixed aperture chosen (ISO is the last to be raised). You could then undertake different "metering modes" (spot metering is especially useful as Taffy @taffy above has mentioned).
Then exposure compensation, once you understand what the "metering modes" might do, and why you would want to compensate...
Next, for me, I'd then make the pitch as to "Why would anyone want to shoot with Manual Metering?" At least for the average photographer not trying for special effects. I know, I know, it's not "macho" to rely on technology, but technology is your friend and will do things almost always better than you can manually.
After all that metering stuff is out of the way, you can begin on the Auto Focus stuff. Selecting Focus Points, understanding what Auto Focus (very different from AUTO on the metering mode dial) can and can't do. This can get complicated, as various cameras have various capabilities, and call things by quite radically different names. But still, important... Face detection (especially in Live View, and yes, a discussion of Live View versus the viewfinder should probably come first), Focus Tracking and things like that...
And "White Balance" and the "color" of light has to come soon after.
That could take the first five or six sessions at least I think.
Then RAW versus Jpeg might be useful next and why you might do that. This gets you out of camera settings quickly of course and is a segue into editing. You can then pass it off to other challenges.
I'd undertake to research the different names and methods that various cameras use, things that can confuse issues for the average photog quite easily, if the coordinator of a particular session doesn't know.
I've gone on long enough, but for reference, my thoughts on the approach to take comes from reading a number of the "From Snapshots to Great Shots" books for various cameras. The one for the Nikon D5100 got me started, and I heartily recommend them to newbies, or even the self-taught. There is a gem of information on every page to help out.
@frankhymus I like what you have here. My opinion is if start by explaining all 3 components of the 3 legged stool is going to be overwhelming for some brand new people. It would have been for me when I started. Another approach could be We are going to cover the 3 legged stool but one part of it at a time. That is sort of what I was thinking about with the first 3 challenges. Even then start with the very basics and then further down it could get more in depth and provide more technical information/links for those who are ready. I think using the P mode is great to use to introduce ISO and exposure. I have seldom used the P mode myself but I think it would be perfect for this. Yeah - I will try to put what you have (based on my understand) in a list.
@frankhymus@myhrhelper just my opinion, but... i know the info Frank has provided is important to properly understanding the camera settings, but (and please don't shoot me) i don't think it is entirely necessary for beginners to understand that stuff in order to use their camera better... to be honest, i still couldn't run those numbers in my head if i tried... but i do (at least i like to think i do!) know how to use those settings to get my camera to capture the image i want...
and while i think you can start by explaining the triangle of iso, aperture and shutter speed, i think it's worth having a play with each one separately as a challenge... i.e.: experiment with iso holding everything else constant... then with aperture, then with shutter speed...
anyway - i may be the outlyer on this, and that's fine... feel free to ignore me... but what i am trying to say is that i loved the camera setting challenges and i think they helped me really make the most of my camera, but the technical stuff is still, to a large degree, lost on me... and i can't help but wonder whether too much of that will put others off as well...
of course... one should probably bear in mind that very few of my shots would be considered "correctly exposed" according to a metre... they are, however, in general, exposed to the degree that i wanted them to be... because i learned how to use the camera settings :)
Kathy... I could see starting w just one f stop, but I think there may be value in covering dof as a single challenge... Ie - seeing how 5.6 is difft from 11 is different from 22... But overall a good list :)
@northy I agree - perhaps have them take the same picture in 5.6 and then two others. My thought of a specific number was to have them have to "find" that fstop
@northy@myhrhelper@frankhymus YES. I think all these ideas are great. Drawing on my teaching experience (NOT in photography, but I figure teaching is essentially what we are trying to do here so some of my skills are relevant) I agree with Frank about what needs to be covered, Northy in that we need to keep it more simple, especially to start out, and Kathy about having a logical sequence etc.
My proposition (in terms of sequence) might go something like this: In terms of the triangle, one at a time, and I would propose shutter speed first, aperture second and ISO third. The reason for this being speed is a relatively simple concept for everyone and the numbers are logical, aperture is also a straightforward concept but the numbers are less so (as Frank points out) and ISO could be a pretty abstract concept until you have the others a little clear in your mind. How about three weeks (or fortnights? I'm not sure of the time frame) on each, for example:
Shutter Priority (auto everything else):
1. Hand-held shooting of "normal", reasonably static or slow-moving subjects. 1/125 sec or so. Still lifes or portraits etc.
2. Fast shutter speed eg. 1/500s-1/2000. Something fast-moving eg. sport, dog running, splashing water.
3. Slow shutter speed. Get your tripod out and shoot some water in the shade or as the light is fading. 1 sec or more.
Aperture Priority (auto everything else)
4. f/8-f/11. "Sweet spot". Landscape or street scene etc.
5. Wide aperture - f/2.8-5.6 dep on everyone's lenses. (Any wider can get challenging so maybe not just yet). Portrait or similar.
6. Narrow aperture (f/22 or smaller dep on lens) - landscape with tripod. Maybe now is a good time to explain the relationship between aperture and shutter speed and hence the need for a tripod.
ISO (maybe P mode and looking at the reciprocal relationship between all three, now that we have a handle on the first two)
7. Low ISO (100) - broad daylight. People can now choose their shutter speed OR aperture based on their subject and what they have learnt already.
8. Med ISO (200-400) - more flexible light e.g. shade, overcast. As above re choosing SS or Aperture.
9. High ISO (800-1600 and above) - indoors/fading light/artificial light at night. As above re SS & Aperture.
Maybe the 10th week is a good time to delve into full manual. We could think about sequences for that later ...
@aliha I like the logic of your list. I personally like these 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, and then go to full manual, two lessons on focus, 1 lesson on metering, then white balance, then flash?
@aliha@myhrhelper This is a logical sequence and while we could debate order I think you make a good case for starting with shutter speed.
My suggestion with '5' is not to avoid 1.4 or 1.8 -- I think extremes can help people see what we mean so comparing f1.8 with f11, for example, really underscores it, especially if it's the exact same object. And I think introducing a tripod around 6 is a good idea -- that will be related, though, to finding an external shutter release or learning the 2 second delay setting. Learning to use a tripod opens a huge world for any photographer. I think it's so good that you're pulling this together!
@taffy Fair comment. My rationale for restricting wider apertures I guess really relates to my own experience. I only had lenses with 3.5-5.6 up until about 15 months ago, and found the wider apertures a big learning curve even with the understandings I already had. Also most kit lenses (if we are talking about new-to-DSLR) being the 3.5-5.6 kind, it might limit people feeling excluded or that their lenses are inadequate. I know this logic doesn't stack up next to introducing tripods though as some people also won't have one yet, so I'm totally open to what others think. (I guess there is always the option of resting the camera on a railing or similar, something I have done MANY a time :) )
I also only purchased a shutter release cable very recently, so I don't think that's essential in the least and again I don't want people thinking they need to buy more gear before they can do the basics. The 2 second delay thing is obviously helpful but could be an "optional extra" in the challenge as some people might find navigating through menus a bit daunting too at this early stage. Again open to everyone's thoughts.
@aliha@myhrhelper
I also like Alison's list.
Another thought. Since we are setting this up with a schedule of lessons we could say each lesson would last one week (Sun - Sat, or what ever days we choose). If teachers/hosts are chosen for each segment, we could start the next segment before choosing the winner of the previous segment. That would keep the challenges moving and also give the teacher/host extra time to gather the information that they want to post. Hope this makes sense.
@aliha Both excellent points -- especially about not needing to buy equipment. My point about aperture wasn't worded well -- mostly I mean that comparing the widest open your lens can go with the smallest closure you have was what I had in mind. So if the lens has f3.5 to f16, that would be the range to use. And when posting a photo, explaining what the f-stop was would be the key, not requiring a particular one necessary.
Re equipment, I think having options (like 2 second delay versus external shutter release) is critical so no one has to spend money on extra equipment. Sometimes it would be worth pointing out what is available, for example, the external shutter release I use was about $20.00 -- not that expensive for the amount of use I've gotten out of it (sort of like "cost per wear for an item of clothing??"). So I don't think we have to avoid introducing useful tools that can be put on a birthday or valentine's day list, perhaps.
The list looks remarkably sensible. I'm a great believer in leading people to their own conclusons, but they do need guidance. How about a set of notes to accompany each new item though? We really would need to put them together and make them sort of orderly.
I would like us to be able to communicate through e-mail. My e-mail is kettlemorainestudios@gmail.com If everyone is comfortable sending me their e-mail I can send an e-mail that includes everyone. if for some reason you don't want to reveal your e-mail I will put it in the BCC and everyone should reply all. If we communicate through e-mail we can put together a list and adjust it - have schedules of who will teach what if possible.
I like that idea of always having it go from Sunday to Saturday - The other question is do we continue to vote on these? Will voting delay the next challenge?
I agree with still having those challenges that may require some equipment but when possible offer alternatives. I was not able to participate originally with the high aperture since I didn't own a prime lens at the time. But I still think we should have those challenges and if they can't do that one they would just do the best they can.
@myhrhelper Since it's folks who are learning, what if this one is not set up for the next few months as a challenge with a winner. What if the coordinator highlights 5-7 'great examples' or something like that. It can shift to finalists and winners as the challenges get more complex. It would be nice to really emphasis the learning experience in this and sharing what was learned, rather than the competitive side. I don't have really strong feelings about this, and I certainly enjoyed challenges and being a finalist, etc, but for learning camera settings, it seems that a competition may not be expected.
@myhrhelper
I am open to either choosing a winner or treating the challenge purely as a training experience. But, since we will already have the next challenge set up I don't see any reason why voting would have to delay the next challenge. Start the new challenge on Sunday, the previous host can choose their top 5 and set up voting while the new challenge is running.
hymus@optonline.net. No problem if anyone else wants to email as well. And TaffyR @taffy that's such a great idea! I know it would be a lot of extra time to invest, but if folks would want to select one of their image for the exercise, post it and ask for comments from the moderator (or panel) that might also be extremely helpful to the whole community. Kind, caring but to-the-specific-point of course.
I would like to read through all the comments but after a quick glance Alison's list looks good, as does yours. I think Taffy also makes a good point about the use of extra equipment. Not everyone has additional equipment. Sue's suggestions re notes is also a great idea. Maybe add some links to sites that have already got comprehensive descriptions about the different functions.
Kathy... I have a migraine and haven't been reading this in any great detail tonight... I am good with whatever and happy to help with whatever I can... My email is Northy 44 at gmail dot com - removing spaces and using @ and . Of course... I'll try to read thru this tomorrow, but I'm a bit afraid I'll forget...
I think that TaffyR @taffy posted a great idea. I know when we first started the camera setting challenge it was pretty intimidating to win a challenge. @frankhymus Frank, when we first started the camera setting challenges we would post an image get some feedback, take some more images, post those for feedback as well. It did take some time and in a lot of cases anyone that was experienced would help out with comments.
@swilde@myhrhelper I'm not sure how the challenges will be set up (as I haven't done a great deal of participating in challenges thus far myself - and never hosted one) but in terms of fleshing out each challenge/providing notes to accompany etc, I am happy to do some of that (pretty experienced with writing summaries, task sheets etc for students and could do with a little exercise after 3+ years maternity leave!), or leave it to the individual who is hosting the challenge for that week. Or if someone else is keen I'm not precious. Whatever suits people. If it's me I will be keeping it as straightforward as I can and to the point and referring folks to @frankhymus for the technical explanations!!! :)
I'm a wee bit late to this. I've tried to read through everything but it's quite a lot and I've forgotten who said what so I'll try not to confuse matters by suggesting a new schedule. @aliha Alison's list looks ok, definitely worth getting camera shake out of the way early.
I think it's important to "know the numbers". Not necessarily the maths behind them just the relationship between them and that can be covered in each challenge. All this information is presented to you in the viewfinder, rear LCD, top plate or maybe all three so people should be encouraged to look at it and see the changes as they happen.
People don't say "stop" enough. Once you get what a stop is it all gets much clearer.
I have to agree with Frank @frankhymus on the manual thing. Modern cameras have incredibly sophisticated metering systems and most of the time are quicker than us and smarter us. When they let us down Exposure Compensation will probably be enough if you know how to use it.
@jocasta @taffy @salza @anazad511 @sparkle
@swilde @iqscotland @lensenvy @aliha @jantan @jantan @mikegifford @httpgeffed
@northy @taffy @summerfield @kwind @lstasel @darylo @frankhymus @panthora @anazad511
So it has been decided to start the Camera Settings Challenge from scratch. My thought is to have a slightly different name but enough to recognize the connection. Also the approach would need to be (especially the beginning challenges) of assuming they are brand new to using camera settings.
I’m thinking it would be good to have the challenges actually planned with assigned challenge/hosts to make sure it doesn’t get too advanced too quickly. Perhaps that would be the case only in the beginning and then the baton is passed to the winner or whoever they ask to host. I don’t know if that makes it too complicated.
Should we come up with a list & order? If so what do you think it should be? What about something like the below to start? Please share your opinion!
1) ISO – basics
2) 2) Aperture /starting with priority
3) 3) Shutter Speed/Starting with Shutter Speed Priority
4) 4) Manual – starting with a specific setting such as aperture f8 and shutter at 125
5) 5) Manual – learning to make adjustments
I am sure I will be jumped all over, but I'd say that Manual Metering (4)should not make a first cut of the list. And by 5) do you mean Manual Focus adjustments, or exposure compensation? Both are useful for sure and should be understood. If your lens supports easy manual focus over-ride. A good number do not.
I think the list looks promising. One thought for #4 is that the idea would be to simply set it at those settings with an ISO of XX (e.g., 200) and have people take one photo. Then analyze the photo and re-take it by resetting the shutter to faster or slower. Analyze again. Then re-take. The point is that if we have them start with a particular setting, they need to be walked through how to analyze and decide what to do as much as learning about settings specifically. I wonder if they are not Ace members and can only post one shot, asking them to do a series of shots and then choose one to post, but explain in the narrative what they had tried and what ended up working to have their final photo. I'd also maybe specify conditions somehow -- like 'during the day with reasonable light' or "a stationary object" or something like that. Sorry to go on...I think this is such a great challenge/theme for beginners and remember when I was trying to figure this stuff out on my own.
Then after that first explanation, I'll write it if you want but please edit it to keep it simple, I'd go for "P" metering, showing people the many "equivalent" exposures. At the same ISO, halve the shutter (make it twice as fast) and the aperture only goes up (narrows) by 1.4, the square root of "double" - area (controlling the amount of light getting in) is proportional to the *square* of the diameter. 1/200 and f/8 is "equivalent" to 1/400 and f/5.6, for example.
Then choose from a "wide" aperture in P mode and compare it to a "narrow" aperture, and notice the DoF issues. A good way then to introduce "A" (Av) mode and why one would choose it.
And likewise take a set of "P" exposures of a moving object, you will get motion blur with slower shutters, and you can introduce "S" mode.
Then a set of exposures in your favorite mode, now P, A or S at different ISO speeds to introduce "low light" shooting, and increasing the ISO. And why you do that as a last resort, the concept of digital noise.
Next, a discussion of "safe" hand-held shutter speeds, and slower than that how you get "camera shake" (different from motion blur). And then a discussion of Image Stabilization and what it means to have two (three, four?) stops of safety... And what is a "stop" anyway? All together, that will get you to a discussion as to WHY many people use high ISO in low light, being lazy and not breaking out the tripod, or trying to do sports shooting (need to stop the motion, kids sports especially for the mums and dads) at night or indoors.
With all that under your belt, then I think you can branch out in a number of ways. My favorite next would be the AUTO ISO with sensitivity parameters. Not all makes have the nice feature, and P&S cameras usually don't at all, Nikon DSLRs seem to have the most comprehensive where in "A" mode you set the slowest shutter and the highest ISO you will allow for the fixed aperture chosen (ISO is the last to be raised). You could then undertake different "metering modes" (spot metering is especially useful as Taffy @taffy above has mentioned).
Then exposure compensation, once you understand what the "metering modes" might do, and why you would want to compensate...
Next, for me, I'd then make the pitch as to "Why would anyone want to shoot with Manual Metering?" At least for the average photographer not trying for special effects. I know, I know, it's not "macho" to rely on technology, but technology is your friend and will do things almost always better than you can manually.
After all that metering stuff is out of the way, you can begin on the Auto Focus stuff. Selecting Focus Points, understanding what Auto Focus (very different from AUTO on the metering mode dial) can and can't do. This can get complicated, as various cameras have various capabilities, and call things by quite radically different names. But still, important... Face detection (especially in Live View, and yes, a discussion of Live View versus the viewfinder should probably come first), Focus Tracking and things like that...
And "White Balance" and the "color" of light has to come soon after.
That could take the first five or six sessions at least I think.
Then RAW versus Jpeg might be useful next and why you might do that. This gets you out of camera settings quickly of course and is a segue into editing. You can then pass it off to other challenges.
I'd undertake to research the different names and methods that various cameras use, things that can confuse issues for the average photog quite easily, if the coordinator of a particular session doesn't know.
I've gone on long enough, but for reference, my thoughts on the approach to take comes from reading a number of the "From Snapshots to Great Shots" books for various cameras. The one for the Nikon D5100 got me started, and I heartily recommend them to newbies, or even the self-taught. There is a gem of information on every page to help out.
and while i think you can start by explaining the triangle of iso, aperture and shutter speed, i think it's worth having a play with each one separately as a challenge... i.e.: experiment with iso holding everything else constant... then with aperture, then with shutter speed...
anyway - i may be the outlyer on this, and that's fine... feel free to ignore me... but what i am trying to say is that i loved the camera setting challenges and i think they helped me really make the most of my camera, but the technical stuff is still, to a large degree, lost on me... and i can't help but wonder whether too much of that will put others off as well...
I want to keep the list somewhat simple
1) Aperture basics aperture f5.6 (could be same as original challenge 1).
Challenge 1: f/5.6 aperture http://365project.org/discuss/themes-competitions/12419/camera-settings-challenge-1
2) Shutter Speed -Shutter Speed Priority (could be same as 2nd original)
Challenge 2: 1/200 exposure http://365project.org/discuss/themes-competitions/12512/camera-settings-challenge-2
3) Basic Focus settings
4) Manual Mode – starting with a specific setting such as aperture f8 and shutter at 125
Then take a shot at setting then adjust
4) P mode adjust ISO and exposure 1+ 1- etc.
6) Light Metering (spot, center, matrix)
Challenge - 20 - Metering http://365project.org/discuss/themes-competitions/16160/camera-settings-challenge-20-in-camera-meter
7) white Balance
Challenge 9: white balance http://365project.org/discuss/themes-competitions/13555/csc-9-white-balance
8) Flash
Challenge 3: Flash Exposure Compensation http://365project.org/discuss/themes-competitions/12633/camera-settings-challenge-3
@swilde @iqscotland @lensenvy @aliha @jantan @jantan @mikegifford @httpgeffed
@northy @taffy @summerfield @kwind @lstasel @darylo @frankhymus @panthora @anazad511
What do you think about that list? Here is the link to the original list http://365project.org/myhrhelper/365/2011-12-12
My proposition (in terms of sequence) might go something like this: In terms of the triangle, one at a time, and I would propose shutter speed first, aperture second and ISO third. The reason for this being speed is a relatively simple concept for everyone and the numbers are logical, aperture is also a straightforward concept but the numbers are less so (as Frank points out) and ISO could be a pretty abstract concept until you have the others a little clear in your mind. How about three weeks (or fortnights? I'm not sure of the time frame) on each, for example:
Shutter Priority (auto everything else):
1. Hand-held shooting of "normal", reasonably static or slow-moving subjects. 1/125 sec or so. Still lifes or portraits etc.
2. Fast shutter speed eg. 1/500s-1/2000. Something fast-moving eg. sport, dog running, splashing water.
3. Slow shutter speed. Get your tripod out and shoot some water in the shade or as the light is fading. 1 sec or more.
Aperture Priority (auto everything else)
4. f/8-f/11. "Sweet spot". Landscape or street scene etc.
5. Wide aperture - f/2.8-5.6 dep on everyone's lenses. (Any wider can get challenging so maybe not just yet). Portrait or similar.
6. Narrow aperture (f/22 or smaller dep on lens) - landscape with tripod. Maybe now is a good time to explain the relationship between aperture and shutter speed and hence the need for a tripod.
ISO (maybe P mode and looking at the reciprocal relationship between all three, now that we have a handle on the first two)
7. Low ISO (100) - broad daylight. People can now choose their shutter speed OR aperture based on their subject and what they have learnt already.
8. Med ISO (200-400) - more flexible light e.g. shade, overcast. As above re choosing SS or Aperture.
9. High ISO (800-1600 and above) - indoors/fading light/artificial light at night. As above re SS & Aperture.
Maybe the 10th week is a good time to delve into full manual. We could think about sequences for that later ...
Thoughts???
@swilde @iqscotland @lensenvy @aliha @jantan @jantan @mikegifford @httpgeffed
@northy @taffy @summerfield @kwind @lstasel @darylo @frankhymus @panthora @anazad511
What are your thoughts on the list
My suggestion with '5' is not to avoid 1.4 or 1.8 -- I think extremes can help people see what we mean so comparing f1.8 with f11, for example, really underscores it, especially if it's the exact same object. And I think introducing a tripod around 6 is a good idea -- that will be related, though, to finding an external shutter release or learning the 2 second delay setting. Learning to use a tripod opens a huge world for any photographer. I think it's so good that you're pulling this together!
I also only purchased a shutter release cable very recently, so I don't think that's essential in the least and again I don't want people thinking they need to buy more gear before they can do the basics. The 2 second delay thing is obviously helpful but could be an "optional extra" in the challenge as some people might find navigating through menus a bit daunting too at this early stage. Again open to everyone's thoughts.
I also like Alison's list.
Another thought. Since we are setting this up with a schedule of lessons we could say each lesson would last one week (Sun - Sat, or what ever days we choose). If teachers/hosts are chosen for each segment, we could start the next segment before choosing the winner of the previous segment. That would keep the challenges moving and also give the teacher/host extra time to gather the information that they want to post. Hope this makes sense.
Re equipment, I think having options (like 2 second delay versus external shutter release) is critical so no one has to spend money on extra equipment. Sometimes it would be worth pointing out what is available, for example, the external shutter release I use was about $20.00 -- not that expensive for the amount of use I've gotten out of it (sort of like "cost per wear for an item of clothing??"). So I don't think we have to avoid introducing useful tools that can be put on a birthday or valentine's day list, perhaps.
@swilde @iqscotland @lensenvy @aliha @jantan @jantan @mikegifford @httpgeffed
@northy @taffy @summerfield @kwind @lstasel @darylo @frankhymus @panthora@anazad511
I would like us to be able to communicate through e-mail. My e-mail is kettlemorainestudios@gmail.com If everyone is comfortable sending me their e-mail I can send an e-mail that includes everyone. if for some reason you don't want to reveal your e-mail I will put it in the BCC and everyone should reply all. If we communicate through e-mail we can put together a list and adjust it - have schedules of who will teach what if possible.
I like that idea of always having it go from Sunday to Saturday - The other question is do we continue to vote on these? Will voting delay the next challenge?
I agree with still having those challenges that may require some equipment but when possible offer alternatives. I was not able to participate originally with the high aperture since I didn't own a prime lens at the time. But I still think we should have those challenges and if they can't do that one they would just do the best they can.
I am open to either choosing a winner or treating the challenge purely as a training experience. But, since we will already have the next challenge set up I don't see any reason why voting would have to delay the next challenge. Start the new challenge on Sunday, the previous host can choose their top 5 and set up voting while the new challenge is running.
@frankhymus Frank, when we first started the camera setting challenges we would post an image get some feedback, take some more images, post those for feedback as well. It did take some time and in a lot of cases anyone that was experienced would help out with comments.
I think it's important to "know the numbers". Not necessarily the maths behind them just the relationship between them and that can be covered in each challenge. All this information is presented to you in the viewfinder, rear LCD, top plate or maybe all three so people should be encouraged to look at it and see the changes as they happen.
People don't say "stop" enough. Once you get what a stop is it all gets much clearer.
I have to agree with Frank @frankhymus on the manual thing. Modern cameras have incredibly sophisticated metering systems and most of the time are quicker than us and smarter us. When they let us down Exposure Compensation will probably be enough if you know how to use it.
Email: alistair at iqscotland dot co dot uk