Below are my top pics for the week. The top one has 23 favs, 336 views and a boat load of comments. I just can't understand why it would not crack the weekly top 20??? Selfish comment, probably. Wonderful pics in the top 20, yes. Just gotta wonder?
Bill, I've noticed the top 20 are usually on the homepage. They are the top pictures each day, shown in the first or second position. It might be the top 2 each day or something along that line.
I have no idea either bill , i know what ur saying . I too had a photo with numbers through the roof with both favs and comments yet it didnt get into the top 20 but one of my other shots did with way less favs and comments . So since then my attitude has changed towards the top 20 . I rarely even go there anymore . To me this site has turned into the biggest popular contest causing alot of bitching . I enjoyed it alot more when the top 20 page wasnt around.
All ur photos are brillant , i think ur whole album is called the top 365 lol .. Keep shooting !!!
Bill, I can understand your frustration because those pics would have definitely cleared that elusive top 20 hurdle; it's reasons like that that I've given up trying to figure out how the top 20 works. :D I'm with Brenda - trying to take less notice of the top-this and top-that and more notice on just taking good photos for me (and for those who follow my work). :)
I think who ever runs this website, should take notice of peoples frustrations or they will leave and go elsewhere. Its bad customer service. Come on 365, get it sorted, this is Social Media after all.
I think Ross did listen when we said we wanted to see new names on the Top 20 (although Bill if I could fav your whole entire album I would LOL). And I can understand why you are stumped, 336 views and 23 favs is pretty fantastic!! I don't understand the top 20 either, although I think that the shots that are there every week are fantastifc and deserve the recognition. The top 20 has eluded me, even when I have shots with through the roof comments and numerous favs. But I take the whole thing with a grain of salt and just enjoy the shots that are up there.
@liipgloss@pocketmouse Well said girls. Being new to 365 I have not even looked at this part of the website. I have a few fave quotes, but thought this one appropriate to this thread:
“I take photographs with love, so I try to make them art objects. But I make them for myself first and foremost - that is important.”
Jacques-Henri Lartigue
I have no idea how it works. But I guess the more followers can = more comments, which as you mentioned Brenda is like a popularity thing. I am not aware of bitching, so lucky me!
Everyone's photos amaze me. I have been inspired and encouraged and am in awe of the talent and creativeness of everyone here. Keep on doing what you love and do it for you! :0)
@liipgloss and everyone:
I totally agree. I've been frustrated with even some of the work put up on the popular page. I look at the numbers, then look back at the numbers of some of my pics for that day and am stumped. Not only that...but some of them aren't pictures I'd EVER think should be popular.
Bill, your work is STUNNING. I think there's a lot of people who deserve to be on popular and on top 20 whose work is never shown. (my cousin Terri Campbell for instance).
I totally agree with you Brenda that it's a popularity contest, always the same old folks. I was never good at those anyway.
I'll just keep taking what I take. Things that I think are art. And I'll keep challenging myself to get better...I guess that's all we can do, though I admit there's been times I've been so frustrated I wanted to quit this whole 365 thing altogether.
But I digress....lol. It's not about what others think of me now is it? (If I didn't learn that spooky week, I NEVER will.)
It's how good I get with my camera...and how I can apply that to the weddings I shoot. Period.
Bill, I don't often look at the top 20, but I always look at your photos - they're terrific and a great inspiration. And you are always so kind and generous with your comments. That's the kind of thing that makes me love 365. It's the people that make it worthwhile! Hope the contests can be sorted out to everyone's satisfaction.
also, to keep this 'fair' among many people there would be a knee-capping function... something like Negitive .1 points for every popular picture you have had for the past 5 periods...
Nothing against you Bill your photos are top notch and would make the daily top 20 if there was one but I personally don't care about the top 20! It's not a photo contest to me. I thought 365 was to get people out to take pictures of their daily lives and what they see through their cam on a daily basis as well as sharing with others. I seems to me that it is turning out to be more of a competition. Sad really because I have seen some comments of people not posting their photo of the day because they thought it was not good enough, really sad that they have been made to feel that way. :D((
I think the "popular" page needs to be renamed. Popular seems to mean having many viewings and/or comments. If the "Photo Monkeys" choose the pictures that they like, regardless of number of views/comments, it's no longer popular, but chosen by committee, hence a name change is in order.
I just ran the math on the top 20 from last week... it holds but there must be something about views by followers and non-followers and fav'd vs views seems to be about 5:1....
The selection method used to choose the top 20 has changed this week, mainly because it was being dominating by a few users. The criteria is far more strict on the photos chosen. Hopefully this change will give other members more of a chance to get noticed. Bill this is why your photos are not featured.
I would like to point out that the photos chosen for the Top 20 page are based on statistics, no individuals personal opinions go in to those chosen. (same goes for the popular page, although they are different criteria)
I try very hard to get "newer" members featured on the site and this weeks theme winner has only been signed up a few weeks, so it is very possible for newer users to get a lot of attention!!!!
I literally can not please everyone...
I get moaned at by everyone, people complain when there photo is not featured, then when a poor photo does get featured everyone complains the standard is too low, and then if only "amazing" photos get featured people complain that it's not got enough "new talent" on it.
When comments come up like some of those posted to this thread it does upset me, I'm not some huge faceless corporation, i'm just a guy trying to make a nice place to hang out on the net! If you don't like something, let me know why, complaining wont make it better! contributing will!
Personally I think that the photos in this weeks top 20 are amazing and more than deserve to be up there!! and to be quite honest it is refreshing to see some new names on the list this week.
I would also like to echo the views of other members in this thread to say that the site is about taking a photo a day and improving your skills, not about how amazingly popular you are.
@lovesscrapn I second your opinion. I'm here because it was a good site to host a 365 project (that was easy to use!), not to see how many fans/whatever I can get. I don't concentrate on making a photographic masterpiece every day so I can get lots of comments or whatever, it serves more of a diary function for me personally, so I can look back on what happened and my random ramblings. I'm honored that people comment and follow me, I just hope they know what they're getting into: lots of photos of my cats and random objects in my room, LOL!
@icywarm thanks! you've come up with some actual insight! I'm not going in to specifics, but clearly this is closer to the approach i take than "my photo has more views than yours, why aren't I on the list"
@Scrivna - Yesssss, the photos on the top 20 are always amazing. :) I know that they're based on cold hard statistics, and not yours or anyone else's personal opinion. I think it's great too that you're making efforts to achieve a balance between the amazing, already-established photographers here and the new and upcoming talent.
The statement I was going for was that I'm sensing a bit of unhappiness around the site regarding the top 20/top 5 theme/popular page etc. stuff, and I think that, while I can understand the frustration, it's better for people to focus on extending their own creativity rather than worry about the stats. :)
You are doing an amazing job with this whole place. I have 365/you to thank for willing me to take a photo (almost) every day, and to learn more and more about photography. My DSLR would be sitting there collecting dust otherwise! :)
@Scrivna makes me happy to know there is an objective criteria in choosing both the top 20 and the pop page. You wouldn't want to tell us what that criteria is, would you?? lol ;)
You're doing a great job Ross. I love this site. The competitive side of me gets frustrated, like I mentioned, but the realistic side of me knows just how many tremendous artists are on here and knows my odds....:) so I agree it's about getting better with my camera, for me (like I mentioned, I know I'm being repetitive...sorry) so that I can deliver better pics for my brides.
You're awesome Ross...the community you built is awesome too. ;)
@Scrivna I hope you did not think that any part of my reply to this thread was in anyway a complaint about this site! If you did I am sorry this was not my intention! I think you do a fantastic job with this site and have made many improvements as of late, many of which have been asked for by other members, and have made this site easier to use. I am sure what you are doing here is a very time consuming process and I know you have other commitments as well. I simply stated I was stumped as to how the top 20 is picked which doesn't bother me at all, I acutally like the mystery of how this site works. I did point out that I feel that every shot that is there is fantastic and deserved the recognition, and mentioned that you did listen to your members by including new names on the chart. Anyway without rambling anymore- I am sorry if I offended you in anyway! Please know that I think you are doing a fantastic job on this site and I am truely thankful for all of your hardwork and dedication!!
@Scrivna and everyone else here. I am relitively new to the project (Day 55) and I am absolutely loving the site and what it is doing for me and my photography. I love that it encourages me to take my camera wherever I go and to put my year into pictures and I am looking forward to looking back over my photos to see where my life has taken me once I have completed the year. I am enjoying seeing some wonderful photos and getting to know some great people. Some photos may not be considered the best photos in the world but they tell a story and often that story is even more incredible. I have made it to the PP page and it is exciting seeing your photos there but what I like about the PP page is more people get to see your photo and I also get a chance to look through and find some new photographer that interests me or find a photo that inspires me to try something different or learn something new. I look through the top 20 each week as I just love seeing the amazing things people do. To me it is not a popularity contest but a chance to have a look at what others are doing. I don't always understand with my own photos why some are rated higher than others but it doesn't really matter, everyone has different tastes, different interest and I know which ones I like the most of mine so it doesn't matter what the computer chooses. I absolutely love your photos Bill, they are all amazing and are certainly inspiring me - your dragonfly photos were the reason I went to our photoshop to inquire about a macro lens but ended up doing a beginner photography course with them instead (I still want that macro lens!!) - thankyou to Ross for a great site and to Bill and the other photographers for inspiring me!!!
@bill_d hey Bill- we are all entitled to our feelings on things. I certainly have a competitive streak in me, and have been disappointed at not making the top 20 ( I was almost certain my Heavenly shot would be there ). No one can fault you for having the feelings you have, and if it were up to me you would have several shots on that chart weekly. Anyway, keep doing what you are doing- creating shots that inspire the rest of us to push ourselves and strive for excellence!
I agree with Jo Arrow- I, too am enjoying this site for the chance to grow creatively. The popular page is a good place to check out what others are doing. It was this page in fact, that made me aware of Bill's work. Scrivna, I didn't mean to criticize you in any way. I'm sorry if youf eel "crapped on"! My remarks were only a suggestion. You're doing a great job managing this site !
@bill_d - hey Bill, maybe I don't feel that competitive streak because I don't expect my photos to be there - your photos are amazing and people agree, you can tell from the comments you get on each photo. I guess we do expect your photos to be in the top 20 each week and they do deserve it so keep up the great work because I for one look forward to seeing your photos :D
Hey, as much as I like to see others get a chance, I'm going to do what I can to get onto the popular page. I have a competitive streak too. Bill's pictures are in a class of their own and I think the term "popular page" is misleading to all of us. Either it's popular or it's a highlight of what's been posted during an unknown period of time and the page title should reflect that Whatever it is, we just want to know if it's worth our time to strive to do improve on our skills. Competition in any form is a strong motivator to keep trying to improve ones photography skills.
Ok, so in a nutshell... I love, love, love Bill's work and if he is popular then his pictures need be on the page. I think we just need to know what the title means for us and how to tell newbies what they need to do to get there too.
@Scrivna Ross, what you've created here is fabulous! The fact that you have created anything at all for us folks this interested in the art of photography is incredible. I find this a great source of inspiration and just love to see what folks are doing. Yes, we all get competitive, myself certainly included, but I have learned that one person's masterpiece can be another's garbage pile. It is just too friggin' hard to determine objectively what is "best" and most deserving, and if we want a "competitive" site, we should find one and post there.
Dude, it's your site, your rules and whatever you say goes. Personally, I'm just happy when I get any comments on ANY of my photos, let alone make the popular page or top 20, cuz I love hearing what my peers have to say and I trust them to be honest with me. I do want to know if my photography affects anyone besides myself and I do want to know when I've missed the boat! Many thanks to you and all you amazing photogs out there!!
@dmortega please take no offense to this comment- but I see growth in your shots, and I hope you a striving to grow because of your love of photography and not what we all think.
@bill_d Your photos are amazing. I complained once a few months back about why the site had to have a competitive edge to it. It seems everything has to be competition these days.
I love 365 and have made peace with the fact that I will never be popular or win anything on here. It's just too tough.
@bill_d
I have no idea how Top 20 choices are made for this project, but I can say that I enjoy and look forward to your photos each and every day. That is a Top 20 for me.
Wow, what a can of worms, must be the change in weather. I have a had two photos on the popular page, and didn't even know it until it was too late, very pleased with myself that I achieved pp, but not the reason why I post. I post because I can, I post because I'm a bragger and I post because I want feed back on my efforts. If people can do that for me then great and if they pass me over, then that's fine too. I have less than zero tech knowledge so dont know how the site work, dont even bother to try. All I can do is thank the elusive Mr Ross for making this place available to me.
Thank you Ross.. :)
I haven't ever thought of 365 being a popularity contest, but maybe it is because I haven't ever really cared about being popular. With the comment I made, I meant that since I don't have many followers and I since I don't really "pimp" myself out, I will more then likely never end up on either page. However, I am overly delighted when someone notices a photo of mine for whatever reason and stops by to make a comment.
When I found 365, I had thought it would be great to take a photo of my daughter everyday and have a place to display it so I could see how she grew over the span of a year, every day. I got here and was excited that a site like this existed. I figured it would give me a "goal" that I could focus in on to improve on my photo taking skills. I have a Canon Rebel and I was going to use that camera for my project but it has since broke and I am left with my little Kodak Easy Share. I get very frustrated with that little camera because it only has auto focus and so things aren't always in focus. I have no control over any of the aperture settings or shutter speeds. However, despite my challenges, I am still learning how to better use that camera and when I finally get my Canon fixed or replaced, maybe I will have new skills to apply to that camera.
I love this site though. I love being able to see a glimpse of everyone's life and the wonderful photo's everyone takes. For me, this site is exactly serving the purpose I set out for it too and then some.
I wanted to also say thank you to Ross for having such a place for us all to work through and communicate through. @Scrivna
I joined 365 to learn about taking photos and to discipline myself to take pictures every day. When I do take good photos I am thrilled and happy to share them. I find myself sometimes getting caught up in wanting to be recognized. While that is okay to a point in the end it gets away from the my idea of the point of this site and being a photographer in general - to capture beauty or subjects of interest and record it for posterity. I am glad that Bill posted this thread because it helped me to remember this and be true to my principles.
I am glad for the popular page and top twenty because I go there and find photos I might never see otherwise. I then can study those to learn more and perhaps follow some interesting people.
This is an exceptional and unique community and I really enjoy the support, encouragement, and critiques of others.
@icywarm
I was kind of making fun of my frustration! But it seriously drives me crazy. It seems to always happen when it would have been the best shot but was a moment you can't recreate like when the children are playing or the dog does something funny. Dang autofocus!!! Maybe it is a control thing, idk!!
@Scrivna Thank you for doing this....I love this site. I feel I have already began to improve my pics. My thinking has greatly changed about what is a "good" picture and my mind has been opened to new ideas and concepts because of all the wonderful photographers on this site. I have discovered that I love nature photography which I never really explored much before. Thanks again, you have given my an outlet that I did not have before for my photography and I can only imagine how I will feel when I look back over my 365 days of pictures. I am proud to say I have not missed a day yet. :) My only frustration since I have started this site is when I see something that I think would be an amazing picture and I am unable to stop right then and there and take the pic, and the moment passes...this drives me crazy!!!! LOL Keep up the good work...I think what you have created here is amazing!!!
Early in project I used to make note of every photo of mine that made the popular page, but I rarely go there now. I haven't made the weekly top 20 for 2 months, but my creativity and pictures have really sucked during this time so I'd actually be embarrassed if I landed one there :). Needless to say, I don't look at it too often either. I have noticed that I follow many of those that do make this list and am always happy for them and feel they deserve it, but I also understand the interest from some here. I've decided to not take this project serious, so even though I'm competitive by nature, I'm not at all that way here. I do have to close this by saying that Bill's shots are consistently amazing and are on a whole different level than most (my opinion of course). I find inspiration as opposed to competition by the likes of him here on 365. Just my $.02.
I understand that some, if not most people are competitive, but is this really the place for it? The community is so usually so supportive and then when any kind of 'top' anything is selected, this mean streak comes out and suddenly it's like everyone gangs up to make others feel awful.
@rebcastillo77 --- none taken. I guess I am not making myself very clear. I don't see this as a contest in anyway except within myself. I would never be able to compete with many of the photographers here and have no problem knowing that. I do however appreciate knowing that I am doing work that people are interested in and the popular page seems to be the place where we know that is true. If any of my pictures make it there, it makes me proud of my work. I don't see what the problem is with that. Why is competition a bad word here?
So, I don't mean to offend anyone. It's not my intention. I would just like to know what ends up on the page.
Regardless, my pictures, I hope, will continue to improve because that is what I want. I want to keep learning new things and getting better.
@dmortega I'm with you, I like a little competition. It's good for you ;) It makes me want to take pictures as good as those people that have made it on the page.
I have been thinking about this a little bit more. For me there is a danger of never thinking I am good enough and then I seek validation through things like a competition. This is when I find myself frustrated or unhappy if I don't get that positive attention from the outside. So, the way I think about this is that if I end up on the popular page or on the top twenty I will experience as an honor and I will feel happy and grateful that all of "you" enjoy a picture of mine. I don't ever want to see it as something I deserve or a right because then it becomes all about ego, rights, being better than. I agree with Dorrena about pushing myself to create something I see with my mind or my minds eye and feeling the great joy and satisfaction of the photograph when it lights up my computer screen. I love 365 as a community and don't want competition to interfere with that feeling of appreciation and positive support we offer each other.
@Scrivna : Thank you for all you put into this site. It has been a huge blessing in my life for many reasons. I have been down because of a bad economy and under-employment. Plus I have moved so much and am in grief for not finding community in my current local. 365 has caused me to look outward, not inward to see the beauty all around me, it has given me something to work on to be creative (even in a little sense) everyday, it has put me in connection with AMAZING people worldwide that I have gotten real encouragement from, real prayer from, real laughs from, real inspiration from. This site is WAY more than I ever expected. I am thrilled about how you do the Top 20 page because it does give more people a chance. I made it one week and it was unexpected but a huge delight for me and some people here in MS. :) I love seeing the new talent. Not that I don't love the pros - I love you guys, too. I think we can share the stage with each other, though. It is all in fun and should be about joy, relationship and art. Anyway, thank you Ross. I think your dream for creating a fun place for people to come hang out over photography is a reality. And I deeply appreciate it and you.
@bill_d
1st thing i said to my hubby this week when the top 20 came out was 'eh there is no Bill' so i didnt understand it either.I guess Ross can never please everyone & it is nice to see other peoples photos in the Top 20.
That said i do want to see the best shots in the top 20 so Bills should really be in most weeks as they are stunning.I dont think we will ever understand the choices Heck i dont even know what shots i put up are going to do well as the ones i think will dont lol. @Scrivna you do an amazing job x
Edit-just a thought it would maybe be fairer that once your shot has been in the top 20 it cant be chosen again as i see some in twice & another person or image could a place instead.
I'm not sure how they choose them, but last week you had 5 of the 20 places Bill, so for sure your work is getting noticed. I've had many on the popular page and one on the home page. I've never had one reach the top 20.
Bill, now i saw your post, and I was comparing the photos with the stats and you should had been on the first place, sorry about that, and in my mind your are in the first place.
@bill_d I am such a fan of yours Bill, and loved the picture in question. It must have felt devastating to have had five (and similar previously) in the top 20 and then nothing at all. Perhaps that was a change too far and a little neglectful of a 'top client', as you clearly are. Maybe just improving visibility of others would have worked, but not by dumming down the top 20. Like Dorrena says, what is wrong with a bit of competition - it can act to inspire and drive you to better things, and you and Peter van Allan (who gets similar exposure in the PP and top 20) certainly do this. But there is clearly a need for more balance.
Personally, I just want to go at my own pace and have the freedom to experiment and make crashing mistakes (plenty of evidence of that!!). But I have to say I was stunned to make the top 20 a week or so back, and proud enough for it to be news when I spoke to a couple of my friends. It felt so good that perhaps, however good a photographer is, a cap of three photographs per person and no repeat appearances in subsequent weeks is fair to allow others to enjoy this same pleasure and boost. Afterall, any photographer who feels insufficiently recognised/acknowledged, can add another shot or two to 'your own favourite of the week' thread. The site is very well set up for this.
I love the 'newcomers' slot, and all credit to Ross for listening to the need for that and acting so quickly. However, I do think there is room for a 'SPECIAL MERIT' slot, for photos that don't get seen for whatever reason (not many followers, bit off the wall (but aren't so many trend-setters!) etc), but are, none-the-less great photographs. This might be less based on stats of views, favs etc, and more on criteria for what makes a great shot, perhaps inviting suggestions of what this should be without it ever revealing the criteria selected for the sort of reasons Ross has given.
365 is definitely doing something right for from the numbers and length of the comments here it is clear how much contributors care!
Finally, you can't please all the people all the time. Marks out of ten for 365 - imperfection and room for development etc, is part of my mark of TEN. Ross has nurtured a culture of supportiveness and encouragement. This and viewing the work of others means we are constantly learning. Perhaps to manage expectations and avoid over competitiveness, the home page can emphasise that the site is more about this than 'winning'. HAPPY PHOTOGRAPHING!
Finally, a huge thank you to Ross for creating something that has enrichened my life enormously even over a span of six weeks. It is UNBELIEVABLE what he has achieved, and thanks also to the wonderful 365ers who are are so generous in their time and consideration of their fellow 365ers.
@miranda hi Miranda, I do like your idea for a special merit section, i'm struggling a little with how we could ever come up with these photos though....
The current method, as you know, is based on statistics, ANY photo can make it to the popular pages, and if it is a genuinely good photo, it will make it there, because people comment or Fav it. If nobody is looking at a photo then how can we highlight it?
You are right, not knowing the statistical approach I really wouldn't be able to accurately say whether a picture is being overlooked or not and it is clear that already you go to great lengths to highlight good work.
However, when some 365ers have amassed 100s of followers and others have only a handful, it is quite likely one of the better pictures of this latter group can easily go unseen. I think pictures a bit off the wall/risk takers can also get overlooked too.
For efficiency's sake, maybe in the first instance work with the likes of Bill and others at this level of skill (take the top five photographers of the last six months of 20s and request their input) to come up with the first draft criteria against which the rest of 365ers can select in their order of priority 1-5 what is important to them, while allowing elaboration of one more criteria if necessary. This could be a learning exercise in itself for all who contribute.
Then its over to you and your team to take the results, set the key criteria and apply it to those pictures that nearly made it, slip the net (top 21-50) etc. It will become 2nd nature after a while. I understand you have (something?) "... monkeys" to select pics for the PP. Maybe as they scan the latest pics coming in they can be earmarked as having special merit (SM). Once those pics that have made the top 20 are subtracted from their list, then the rest of the SM pics can have criteria applied to come up with 5, 10 or twenty SM pics.Perhaps test it for a monthly slot to begin with or go for just five pics on a weekly basis.
Anyway, all of this is only to give you something to kick against. Ultimately, it is whether others, especially those who have been around longer than I have, to give the thumbs up or down to the idea of a 'special merit' section.
Whoops! You asked how would you highlight it. Add it as as sub-heading to the page in which I found this thread: 'Photographs of special merit' or some such.
The only pictures that wouldn't necessarily make it here are those that have already made it to the Top 20.
The SM thread would be more about quality than popularity (which can be the same, but not always). People may already feel that the weekly personal favs covers this to some extent, either where they choose their own photo or that of other 365ers. However, I imagine a large proportion of people don't have the confidence to put themselves forward on the personal slot and a lot of people are insufficiently visible to be noticed for others to put them forward as a favourite. And there is real value in their work being acknowledged when they hadn't been aware of its merit.
Anyway, nice of you to have taken the time to have read what I wrote. People, myself included really like the simplicity of 365 and the key thing is not to make it too complicated, and my suggestions just might just do that. GOOD LUCK.
@Scrivna Another way to acknowledge pix and try to keep it from a pure competition would be to have levels of achievement, gold, silver and bronze. No ranking 1, 2, 3 but still an achievement based on popularity. How you vote depends on the behavior you want to encourage. If you want to encourage comments then for example gold over 150 comments, silver over 100 comments... It as could be a combination of Favs and comments. Gold 20 Favs and 100 comments for example. Can't avoid a popularity contest (some folks don't post but fav/comment, oh well).
So when the page comes out there are three tabs that designate the level achieved. This would give visibility to many newcomers at the bronze level and give folks something to achieve, silver and gold. Of course maybe that's too many photos but the criteria could be adjusted so that the three tables would each have between 0 and 25 pix each. Best wishes! I like the newcomers page!
@bill_d - Hi bill - I think someone with, for example, nearly 700-900 followers, who is able to invest a lot of time in commenting on a similar number of others' pictures (which triggers further followers, comments, favs, views etc) and is an ace member with more than one album to enter, could easily skew the results in their favour through such a system as you are suggesting and end up being in all three categories. This still leaves the majority with little visibility, but whose photography would benefit from the encouragement and visibility the acknowledgment process brings. There is no perfect system and the Top 20 has thus far been good until it tried to incorporate fairer criteria, which appeared to have, I believe, unfairly excluded you from the top 20. Using quality criteria for a 'special merit' category might create interesting contrasts in what appears in the 'popularity' lists and overcome inequality issues. OK, so you would almost invariably have pics in the top 20 (though I think a cap is fair) every week, which would exclude you from the 'special merit', but at least more people get a chance of being acknowledged. I imagine what I have suggested might take too much resourcing, in which case the capping system for the Top 20 might maintain simplicity and improve fairness.
Aaah....competition.......popular people....with fancy cameras .......expensive equipment.......years of experience.......I never made it to the popular page......cant take it no more.....need to quit .....to much pressure......heads gonna explode....top 20,weekly themes.....bwaaah! .....just kidding :)
@bill_d --- No matter how much anyone here may want this site to be noncompetitive, it will be if there is a level to strive for. Bronze, silver, or gold is still recognition for popularity of the picture. Even you asked why your pictures didn't make the cut as part of the top 20 and understandably so. The weekly theme challenges are competitive by trying to get ones picture chosen as one of the five to chose from. It is human nature to try to strive for recognition by our peers. I think as long as we know what the criteria is when we see those pages we will be satisfied. The problem seems to occur when the criteria is fuzzy or not what we understand.
Edited to add; I like your suggestion for levels. :-)
When I first joined Project 365 I was interested in being included in the weekly top 20 list. After a few weeks, a photograph of mine appeared on the top 20 list, but after appearing on it, I felt hollow. It seemed that I was beginning to shift how I photographed so that I could land on the top 20 list consistently. I stopped that rather quickly when I felt pursuing this would muddy the reason for joining the project in the first place. For me it is a journey into self through my experiences photographing flora and fauna at the Phipps Conservatory in Pittsburgh. When I went back to that, I felt at peace and alive again. Don't get me wrong, I like comments same as the next person. However, achievement through "winning" by being on a top 20 list isn't for me.
@scrivna I think you do an amazing job creating and maintaining such a site which IS a great place for people with photography interests to hang out, for FREE! I have improved immensely in my photography due to this site, its community, and my commitment to the project. The goal of this project and website is the project and becoming a better photographer, not a photo contest. Thank you for all you do.
@scrivna just wanted to send you a note of encouragement thank you for this site and yes for the fact that its free and for all your hard work and for all you quick responses to peoples concerns i couldnt do what you do but because of this site my passion for photography has grown and though i don't do a good job with the picture a day I have something to aim for. Thank you and keep up the good work
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All ur photos are brillant , i think ur whole album is called the top 365 lol .. Keep shooting !!!
“I take photographs with love, so I try to make them art objects. But I make them for myself first and foremost - that is important.”
Jacques-Henri Lartigue
I have no idea how it works. But I guess the more followers can = more comments, which as you mentioned Brenda is like a popularity thing. I am not aware of bitching, so lucky me!
Everyone's photos amaze me. I have been inspired and encouraged and am in awe of the talent and creativeness of everyone here. Keep on doing what you love and do it for you! :0)
I totally agree. I've been frustrated with even some of the work put up on the popular page. I look at the numbers, then look back at the numbers of some of my pics for that day and am stumped. Not only that...but some of them aren't pictures I'd EVER think should be popular.
Bill, your work is STUNNING. I think there's a lot of people who deserve to be on popular and on top 20 whose work is never shown. (my cousin Terri Campbell for instance).
I totally agree with you Brenda that it's a popularity contest, always the same old folks. I was never good at those anyway.
I'll just keep taking what I take. Things that I think are art. And I'll keep challenging myself to get better...I guess that's all we can do, though I admit there's been times I've been so frustrated I wanted to quit this whole 365 thing altogether.
But I digress....lol. It's not about what others think of me now is it? (If I didn't learn that spooky week, I NEVER will.)
It's how good I get with my camera...and how I can apply that to the weddings I shoot. Period.
X = Followers
Xv = Views
Xf = Favs
P = Pop
Xv & Xf are equally weighted (they may or may not be)
P= (Xv + Xf) / X
Bill's Co Eff of pop would be about:
.4573=(23+336)/785
Random Person with 20 followers with 1 fav and 15 views
.8=(1+15)/20
ergo that person's photo is more popular
just a thought... but it is easy to see how this weighted average could be used...
Sorry that sounded bitchy... but still?!?
Had 2 pictures, one with 32 faves, the other 28 faves, and lots of comments and views, and they never made the top 20!
I would like to point out that the photos chosen for the Top 20 page are based on statistics, no individuals personal opinions go in to those chosen. (same goes for the popular page, although they are different criteria)
I try very hard to get "newer" members featured on the site and this weeks theme winner has only been signed up a few weeks, so it is very possible for newer users to get a lot of attention!!!!
I literally can not please everyone...
I get moaned at by everyone, people complain when there photo is not featured, then when a poor photo does get featured everyone complains the standard is too low, and then if only "amazing" photos get featured people complain that it's not got enough "new talent" on it.
When comments come up like some of those posted to this thread it does upset me, I'm not some huge faceless corporation, i'm just a guy trying to make a nice place to hang out on the net! If you don't like something, let me know why, complaining wont make it better! contributing will!
Personally I think that the photos in this weeks top 20 are amazing and more than deserve to be up there!! and to be quite honest it is refreshing to see some new names on the list this week.
I would also like to echo the views of other members in this thread to say that the site is about taking a photo a day and improving your skills, not about how amazingly popular you are.
@rebcastillo77 @foxout @rebcastillo77 @bill_d @pocketmouse @timandelke
The statement I was going for was that I'm sensing a bit of unhappiness around the site regarding the top 20/top 5 theme/popular page etc. stuff, and I think that, while I can understand the frustration, it's better for people to focus on extending their own creativity rather than worry about the stats. :)
You are doing an amazing job with this whole place. I have 365/you to thank for willing me to take a photo (almost) every day, and to learn more and more about photography. My DSLR would be sitting there collecting dust otherwise! :)
You're doing a great job Ross. I love this site. The competitive side of me gets frustrated, like I mentioned, but the realistic side of me knows just how many tremendous artists are on here and knows my odds....:) so I agree it's about getting better with my camera, for me (like I mentioned, I know I'm being repetitive...sorry) so that I can deliver better pics for my brides.
You're awesome Ross...the community you built is awesome too. ;)
@rebcastillo77
Ok, so in a nutshell... I love, love, love Bill's work and if he is popular then his pictures need be on the page. I think we just need to know what the title means for us and how to tell newbies what they need to do to get there too.
Dude, it's your site, your rules and whatever you say goes. Personally, I'm just happy when I get any comments on ANY of my photos, let alone make the popular page or top 20, cuz I love hearing what my peers have to say and I trust them to be honest with me. I do want to know if my photography affects anyone besides myself and I do want to know when I've missed the boat! Many thanks to you and all you amazing photogs out there!!
I love 365 and have made peace with the fact that I will never be popular or win anything on here. It's just too tough.
I have no idea how Top 20 choices are made for this project, but I can say that I enjoy and look forward to your photos each and every day. That is a Top 20 for me.
Thank you Ross.. :)
When I found 365, I had thought it would be great to take a photo of my daughter everyday and have a place to display it so I could see how she grew over the span of a year, every day. I got here and was excited that a site like this existed. I figured it would give me a "goal" that I could focus in on to improve on my photo taking skills. I have a Canon Rebel and I was going to use that camera for my project but it has since broke and I am left with my little Kodak Easy Share. I get very frustrated with that little camera because it only has auto focus and so things aren't always in focus. I have no control over any of the aperture settings or shutter speeds. However, despite my challenges, I am still learning how to better use that camera and when I finally get my Canon fixed or replaced, maybe I will have new skills to apply to that camera.
I love this site though. I love being able to see a glimpse of everyone's life and the wonderful photo's everyone takes. For me, this site is exactly serving the purpose I set out for it too and then some.
I wanted to also say thank you to Ross for having such a place for us all to work through and communicate through. @Scrivna
I am glad for the popular page and top twenty because I go there and find photos I might never see otherwise. I then can study those to learn more and perhaps follow some interesting people.
This is an exceptional and unique community and I really enjoy the support, encouragement, and critiques of others.
LMAO that is so funny! I don't know if you meant it as a joke... ah... makes me glad of my 60 year old glass with nice buttery focus ring...
I was kind of making fun of my frustration! But it seriously drives me crazy. It seems to always happen when it would have been the best shot but was a moment you can't recreate like when the children are playing or the dog does something funny. Dang autofocus!!! Maybe it is a control thing, idk!!
I understand that some, if not most people are competitive, but is this really the place for it? The community is so usually so supportive and then when any kind of 'top' anything is selected, this mean streak comes out and suddenly it's like everyone gangs up to make others feel awful.
So, I don't mean to offend anyone. It's not my intention. I would just like to know what ends up on the page.
Regardless, my pictures, I hope, will continue to improve because that is what I want. I want to keep learning new things and getting better.
1st thing i said to my hubby this week when the top 20 came out was 'eh there is no Bill' so i didnt understand it either.I guess Ross can never please everyone & it is nice to see other peoples photos in the Top 20.
That said i do want to see the best shots in the top 20 so Bills should really be in most weeks as they are stunning.I dont think we will ever understand the choices Heck i dont even know what shots i put up are going to do well as the ones i think will dont lol.
@Scrivna you do an amazing job x
Edit-just a thought it would maybe be fairer that once your shot has been in the top 20 it cant be chosen again as i see some in twice & another person or image could a place instead.
you do get in the top 20 a lot :P you're a very popular member. But you have a valid question.
@Scrivna
thanks for clearing that up, I've been wondering how that works for a while.
Personally, I just want to go at my own pace and have the freedom to experiment and make crashing mistakes (plenty of evidence of that!!). But I have to say I was stunned to make the top 20 a week or so back, and proud enough for it to be news when I spoke to a couple of my friends. It felt so good that perhaps, however good a photographer is, a cap of three photographs per person and no repeat appearances in subsequent weeks is fair to allow others to enjoy this same pleasure and boost. Afterall, any photographer who feels insufficiently recognised/acknowledged, can add another shot or two to 'your own favourite of the week' thread. The site is very well set up for this.
I love the 'newcomers' slot, and all credit to Ross for listening to the need for that and acting so quickly. However, I do think there is room for a 'SPECIAL MERIT' slot, for photos that don't get seen for whatever reason (not many followers, bit off the wall (but aren't so many trend-setters!) etc), but are, none-the-less great photographs. This might be less based on stats of views, favs etc, and more on criteria for what makes a great shot, perhaps inviting suggestions of what this should be without it ever revealing the criteria selected for the sort of reasons Ross has given.
365 is definitely doing something right for from the numbers and length of the comments here it is clear how much contributors care!
Finally, you can't please all the people all the time. Marks out of ten for 365 - imperfection and room for development etc, is part of my mark of TEN. Ross has nurtured a culture of supportiveness and encouragement. This and viewing the work of others means we are constantly learning. Perhaps to manage expectations and avoid over competitiveness, the home page can emphasise that the site is more about this than 'winning'. HAPPY PHOTOGRAPHING!
Finally, a huge thank you to Ross for creating something that has enrichened my life enormously even over a span of six weeks. It is UNBELIEVABLE what he has achieved, and thanks also to the wonderful 365ers who are are so generous in their time and consideration of their fellow 365ers.
The current method, as you know, is based on statistics, ANY photo can make it to the popular pages, and if it is a genuinely good photo, it will make it there, because people comment or Fav it. If nobody is looking at a photo then how can we highlight it?
You are right, not knowing the statistical approach I really wouldn't be able to accurately say whether a picture is being overlooked or not and it is clear that already you go to great lengths to highlight good work.
However, when some 365ers have amassed 100s of followers and others have only a handful, it is quite likely one of the better pictures of this latter group can easily go unseen. I think pictures a bit off the wall/risk takers can also get overlooked too.
I'm unfamiliar with photographic quality criteria myself too. However, I just found this site that has a pretty comprehensive list. http://www.woodburnphoto.co.za/About/PhotographicJudgingCriteria/tabid/15818/Default.aspx. There must be lots more where that came from.
For efficiency's sake, maybe in the first instance work with the likes of Bill and others at this level of skill (take the top five photographers of the last six months of 20s and request their input) to come up with the first draft criteria against which the rest of 365ers can select in their order of priority 1-5 what is important to them, while allowing elaboration of one more criteria if necessary. This could be a learning exercise in itself for all who contribute.
Then its over to you and your team to take the results, set the key criteria and apply it to those pictures that nearly made it, slip the net (top 21-50) etc. It will become 2nd nature after a while. I understand you have (something?) "... monkeys" to select pics for the PP. Maybe as they scan the latest pics coming in they can be earmarked as having special merit (SM). Once those pics that have made the top 20 are subtracted from their list, then the rest of the SM pics can have criteria applied to come up with 5, 10 or twenty SM pics.Perhaps test it for a monthly slot to begin with or go for just five pics on a weekly basis.
Anyway, all of this is only to give you something to kick against. Ultimately, it is whether others, especially those who have been around longer than I have, to give the thumbs up or down to the idea of a 'special merit' section.
I hope that is of help.
The only pictures that wouldn't necessarily make it here are those that have already made it to the Top 20.
The SM thread would be more about quality than popularity (which can be the same, but not always). People may already feel that the weekly personal favs covers this to some extent, either where they choose their own photo or that of other 365ers. However, I imagine a large proportion of people don't have the confidence to put themselves forward on the personal slot and a lot of people are insufficiently visible to be noticed for others to put them forward as a favourite. And there is real value in their work being acknowledged when they hadn't been aware of its merit.
Anyway, nice of you to have taken the time to have read what I wrote. People, myself included really like the simplicity of 365 and the key thing is not to make it too complicated, and my suggestions just might just do that. GOOD LUCK.
So when the page comes out there are three tabs that designate the level achieved. This would give visibility to many newcomers at the bronze level and give folks something to achieve, silver and gold. Of course maybe that's too many photos but the criteria could be adjusted so that the three tables would each have between 0 and 25 pix each. Best wishes! I like the newcomers page!
Edited to add; I like your suggestion for levels. :-)