What a shocking discovery... I went to visit (friends) this week and was told this very thing. He was, in his younger days a professional film photographer, and a quite well known professional in his time and the industry. I stated quietly I am not a professional, nor did I want to be a professional. I take photos for the enjoyment, the mere pleasure of discovering again the world in which I live. His wife stated, well you are not a real photographer at all, you can go and fix everything on the computer, he had to take the shot and know what he was doing. He then said well some of your photos are good, but you are not consistent. I see some that are not good at all. BTW, I had just explained, after THEY ASKED TO SEE, not all were yet gone through and bad ones taken out. During this entire time, I was reminded he once shot for BUDWEISER, six rolls got one good shot. Pammi Anderson, remember honey in Amsterdam. Oh yes, and all over the world with Playboy.. Oh GIVE ME a BREAK... great, nice you had that time, NAME DROPPERS. as far as I am concerned, well let's just say: we all come into the world and all leave the world, if we can impact one life in a positive way, that to me what matters. Status does not impress me. (a.d.d. focus dar) I am sure we have similar stories in our lives, or on 365. I want to re-open a discussion on the SUBJECT, my story eh, the subject, PLEASE. OH.... their comment to me, PISSED me off enough to come back even better, with more knowledge, better photos. Go ahead bud, this 5' 103lber, is not afraid of the BIG DOGS.
so what do you say?
dar
Well pretty soon there won't be any "photographers" anymore because everything will ALL be digital or something else that they will discover in the next 50 years!!! Deleting is better for the earth than throwing away shots you developed from film and don't want............... (Oh, boy, that will probably get me in a heap of trouble)
There are two quotes you can give in response to someone who did not even take the photos in the first place.
"The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance."
Ansel Adams (basically anyone can take a photo, but the presentation of how you see the negative is the art)
@sailingmusic no real trouble, you should see how many test strips and bad prints I throw out in the dark room. Also with the darkroom we just print a contact sheet or go fast and furious by looking at the negative and knowing it will work
The part of calling you inconsistent seems quite hypocritical when you consider he claimed to shoot 6 rolls of film to get one good shot. You deserve to be PISSED off.
The only real difference in film and digital is the media on which the photo is stored. Both can be manipulated, one with chemicals and light the other with "magical computers". Both styles improve your skill with trial and error, one is just easier to assess the error quicker.
As @guaranteed stated we are all just using light to make a picture.
Some turn out great others not so much.
Every picture is manipulated, whether in the darkroom, "in lightroom", or in camera. Very few SOOC images make it to the big time, either film or digital. Who is and who is not a photographer, is not my job to make that distinction. Well, those who never take a picture may not be a photographer.
I'm sure if that pompous photog worked for Playboy that his photos were airbrushed extensively so that any skin imperfections.discolorations etc. didn't show - the airbrush artist did essentially the same thing a few years ago that we do with editing software today - so they have a lot of nerve acting like he created those images without any outside help - sounds like they are full of hot air-I am pissed for you!!! At least its good for a laugh at their ridiculous name dropping lol!
@mrsc19 I was just thinking the exact same thing.
And anyways, photography is subjective. I may absolutely dislike a photographers work/style while others may rave about it. That's the thing about art is that there's no right way to do it. Do your thing. Someone somewhere finds it beautiful.
Pho.tog.ra.phy ~ noun \fə-ˈtä-grə-fē
the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially lght on a sensitive surface (as film or an optical sensor)
Pho.tog.ra.pher ~ noun \fə-ˈtä-grə-fər\
one who practices photography; especially: one who makes a business of taking photographs
just about says it all. if you take his arguement to its conclusion then he is not a photographer either as I am sure he used such devilish devices as lenses and photographic film (i wonder if Niépce or Fox Talbot would have scoffed him as much as he scoffs digital technology). the great thing about photography is that it is ever changing, as technology advances so does the work and having worked in both I can say it takes just as much practice to get a professional look in a lightroom as it does a darkroom the only thing different is the workflow
You are not a real photographer if you have to tear down others who are not as advanced as you are, only to make yourself feel better. Sorry that you were made to feel that way. That stinks!
@amandal - you got it in one. What a jerk that guy was/is. The fact is, you know things about photography he never will & you can do things with photos he never could. Visa versa of course but he needs to wake up and smell the 21st century.
Tell him that there are two ways to make yourself look good, you can either work hard and be good or you can tear everyone else around you down to by comparison you appear better than you are.
@sailingmusic I be there fir you, if the storm comes in... I can hear both sides now!! @guaranteed Good great point.. That is what I love to watch for. @phillyphotos ABSOLUTELY, love love how you explain it Paula.... KISS MY GRITS...but Adams may pull a bit more weight... @bbf Yes, Ben I do hope he saw the puzzled look on my face. Key word here IMPROVE skills, that is what he said he wanted to help me on.. @chapjohn I agree John, I have a friend just now starting out, I told him today, people ask, you ARE a photographer... He is just a real newbie too...we all were there once. I kind of see it like age. @mrsc19 Yea Christy, you made me laugh. I think, really, because he knows nothing about digital, he actually is intimidated by me..haha @angelamarie1437 +That too, is such a great point, I generally think of that when I show someone a shot that may be abstract. eye of the beholder. ART is different to everyone. @asrai Oh Lee, a good voice of reason for me. yes the dictionary, headslap, should have brought that out.. dannit!! I so agree with you too on editing. I am so very uneducated in my editing skills, I only simple edit. I am trying to decide on Photoshop or LR. I intimidated by both, and most. Great point bringing up others who came before.. @amandal Thank you Amanda, at first I did feel bad then pissed, not a good combo for them, to get me that way. Very few outside my family have ever seen or heard me express that side. @squamloon Thank you... great words of wisdom...
thank you everyone, hope I didn't miss anyone.
365 is great, dar
I remember the good ole days when a photographer needed his own darkroom in order to manipulate the image before printing. If you would have offered the pro the advantages of digital, they would have grabbed it, because the darkroom experience was messy, time consuming and costly. Only a few could afford it. I
t still requires skill to take a good picture with correct lighting, accurate focus and shutter speed to capture a great shot. All the lab work is moot if the original is out of focus or too hazy to enhance.
From what I've seen on this website, there are a lot of good photographers out there, and some days you would like to be able to post more than one image because you were proud of what you did the day before. One more trick a pro taught me. If the original is not good, offer the customer the image in Black and white; B/W hides a lot of capture errors. So tell your friend to get over himself.
It is sort of like driving a car. Ask any taxi driver or chauffeur if they would prefer automatic or standard. Ask any audio purist whether the warm sound of analog is really a memory of bygone years when one's ear still heard the full range of sounds.
Digital is not going away any time soon, and the photography hobbyist can concentrate on subject and lighting without blowing the family fortune on wasted chemicals and labour.
@paulavdmerwe HA Paula, MY feeling EXACTLY... @david68 After thought David, I thought the same thing..I bet I intimidate him.. @jankoos Yep, me too Jan. I DO know more than him, as far as a digital camera goes. He told me himself that fact. and in my post I do actually get stronger when people piss me off, it challenges me to get better.. Weird I know..may be that fact I come from 8 kids in my family, FIERCE TO BE THE BEST.. @aponi Kathryn, I think I will do that!!
dar thanks for joining in
@murrays99 YES, so well put. so well put. as I sit here to respond, my mind keeps wandering, the first phone to now, well just about most things. He is stuck.. I really at this point only know digital, I guess like me showing a kid an eight track player... sure I have used brownie, and other film, but I say USED. I have learn digital. thanks
dar
Clearly he was of the German Schadenfreude school, someone who takes pleasure from the misfortune of others. And in this case the misfortune is all in his negative mind. Bah. Life's too short to waste time on blowhards like this.
so true @peterdegraaff . I did film photography at uni and I now do digital. I love both and I am constantly amazed and inspired by what other photographers (both film and digital) can create with their eye and their skill.
A 'real' photographer will use the tools available to them and not stop learning.
A 'real' photographer will know, regardless whether it be digital or film, editing is an important step in the outcome of the final product.
A 'real' photographer will also know if the photo is bad that no editing program can turn it into a good photo.
FWIW; Treat the comments as an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you are doing a similar style of photography then they probably are giving some advice under all the attitude. I do take this kind of advice as a challenge to 'rethink' what I am trying to do. You should, too. However if you are doing a different style of photography then maybe they aren't the ones to be showing your work to. They wouldn't have any real advice for a style they no nothing about. You need advice and critiquing from people who can help you develop you style. Just remember, art is subjective. It takes a lot of work and time to develop your skills. Try different things, experiment, and just keep learning and do your best to look beyond the babble to find what can really help you to grow as a photographer.
I'm sorry your friends are so judgmental! Real photographers take pictures, regardless of the type of camera.
I see hundreds of great photos on 365 and elsewhere shot with all sorts of film cameras, with compact digital cameras AND with DSLR's. To me, being judgmental about the type of camera someone else uses is like saying a sculpture isn't art because it's not an oil painting, or a novel isn't literature because it's not a poem. We all use different media. More importantly, we should all respect each others' creative choices.
... and you're not a REAL writer if you use a typewriter or, god forbid, a computer, instead of a chisel in stone.
... and you're not a REAL painter if you use a brush with synthetic fibres
... and you're not a REAL driver if you use a motor vehicle instead of a beast-drawn carriage
... and.....
I would trust that these "friends" of yours are now no longer. What pompous asses. The best pros I have found always find ways to encourage others, and that includes all enthusiastic amateurs! Those are the people I will pay attention to, not snobs like this. "Film is the only artistic media" snobs sometimes take that defesive attitude when they can't wrap their minds around the new technology.
You know sounds like you bumped into a grumpy photography who at one time mastered the use of film (perhaps still uses film). Sounds like he/she got some great photo opps too. I do believe using film is an art since each frame literally cost the photographer something versus digital era of re-takes. You really have to know what you are doing when using film. I respect it. If I were in your shoes I would have challenge him/her with why they didn't make the transition to digital. I would have asked them to explain why film is so superior in this day and age? Everyone else has transitioned - sounds like your grumpy photographer friend did not.
You don't make a photograph just with a camera. You bring to the act of photography all the pictures you have seen, the books you have read, the music you have heard, the people you have loved
Ansel Adams
I see others used different quotes, art photography is in the eye of the beholder..technology has a way of changing that in our world daily!
Sounds to me like he is afraid of someone else showing him up. He did admit that all of his photos weren't good either (it took 6 rolls to get 1 good shot). Not that this is unusual in the photography world, but how can he then look at yours and fault you...a hypocrite is what he really is.
I say he's just jealous because way back in his days they didn't have 365. As a matter of face, they didn't even have computers! I love your PEACE photo!
I have a neighbor/friend who is a professional artist in the medium of photography. Now in her 80s, we were talking recently and she said it's hard today since anyone can be a photographer. She wasn't saying it critically -- to complain about it -- but more as a statement of fact about her professional identity (I think). It did make me reflect on how it might feel for those who have spent their career in a field that was somewhat elite (her work has been shown at Chicago's Art Institute) now feel when they see the explosion of some excellent art that would not have been possible in their heyday. And a field that they had to study and have some sort of credential in to be considered successful.
I agree with all who noted how uncivil the guy was to put down Al simply for wanting to participate and get better at the craft. But, I wonder at what a sad person his critic must be. There aren't many Ansel Adams who I suspect would be and remain at the top of the field no matter what the medium would be. How many of the next tier folks are the ones tearing down those of us who they see as having encroached into their field?
I absolutely hate that anyone has to put up with this kind of biased, opinionated lecturing and posturing from any other human being.
That is probably the most absolutely wonderful thing about 365, that our community is almost always kind, caring and supportive WHATEVER the medium. . .
How many film cameras do you think current Playboy photographers use? How about National Geographic staffers? The photographer for the president of the US? So does your friend not consider any of these current professionals, to be professional? Change is scary to some. :)
Don't let this guy bother you dar. he may have been good in his day but things change. i have been photographing for 30 years. when i saw digital coming into the game i knew if i didn't change with the times i would be left behind. i was leary at first. my first digital camera that i started shooting weddings with was a 5.6 megapixel. wow how things have changed since then in just a short time span. I wonder if he thinks that mail men aren't real mail men because they never delivered with pony express. You gotta roll with technology. where will photography go in the future? i have a few ideas and they may seem crazy,Too crazy to even talk about in public forum. but i think future generations will see some wild things happen with imagery. keep on clicking
I would have told them to kiss the sunny side of my Geranium and then taken a digital photo of the look on their faces!! I think that comments like these peoples are often motivated by a fear of change.
@adifferenteye ... The only real difference is the number of hours or years it took to learn how to calculate exposure, depth of field, mixing chemicals, etc., and the cost of buying the equipment and setting up a darkroom. The digital revolution has by-passed much of that and brought photography to the masses, but for those who did learn all the basics (and I am one) there are digital cameras which do allow full manual control if required, so your friend is only partly right, but it should not be seen as an excuse for boasting of one's prowess because in thye final analysis it is not what equipment you use but what your mind makes of what the eye sees before pressing the button that really matters most.
I think that what we do on this site, share our vision of the world around us with others, might not make us "photographers", but it makes us a human community. And I can tell you which one I think is more important!!!
Sounds like someone is not ready to keep up with technology and the 21st century. I take more photos now than I ever did with a film camera for all the obvious reason. With film I only photographed occasionally, then I would be very disappointed when the pictures didn't turn out. Now I photograph everything, no money wasted on bad photos.
@northy PERFECT RESPONSE.. wish I would have thought of that.. I would have loved to see the look on her face... I love what I do. I guess one of the reasons I started the discussion was to see if other had heard crap such as this. NO ONE should ever apologize for a photo they are proud of. A friend is a real newbie. I told him, keep shooting, never apologize, call yourself a photographer....
dar
What a load of row locks your "friend" speaks . Presume he is out chasing a dinosaur to keep him company with his alter ego called self. Snap happy and enjoy the fact that the mistakes you make don't cost money just time
This sort of reminds me of a time we were camping in the Smokies. Next to us was this group where obviously this one guy knew all there was to know and was teaching everyone else how to do it. He was really proud of himself and talking really loudly so we could benefit from his wisdom as well. It's always the loud mouths who don't know anything isn't it? I mean I'm no Bear Grylls but I've spent a lot of time outdoors and my husband is an Eagle Scout.
So anyway after we watched them fail miserably for some time to build a fire we offered loud mouth's girlfriend some coals to get it going. We thought she would be the reasonable one over there. She looked like she wanted to and then said no that he wanted to do it the "old fashioned way."
I assume this means he was going at it with a bow and string or maybe just waiting for lightening to strike nearby.
@aponi oh lordy Kathyrn, yes it can only make you laugh that much harder, and all the while keeping toasty warm... @padlock your too much, just love it. I agree.. @dandolo Yep, yhat's what I am going to do Dandolo, honestly I think HE'S intimidated by my skills WITH a digital...
dar
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"The negative is the equivalent of the composer's score, and the print the performance."
Ansel Adams (basically anyone can take a photo, but the presentation of how you see the negative is the art)
the other is
"Kiss My Grits"
Florence Jean Castleberry
The only real difference in film and digital is the media on which the photo is stored. Both can be manipulated, one with chemicals and light the other with "magical computers". Both styles improve your skill with trial and error, one is just easier to assess the error quicker.
As @guaranteed stated we are all just using light to make a picture.
Some turn out great others not so much.
And anyways, photography is subjective. I may absolutely dislike a photographers work/style while others may rave about it. That's the thing about art is that there's no right way to do it. Do your thing. Someone somewhere finds it beautiful.
the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially lght on a sensitive surface (as film or an optical sensor)
Pho.tog.ra.pher ~ noun \fə-ˈtä-grə-fər\
one who practices photography; especially: one who makes a business of taking photographs
just about says it all. if you take his arguement to its conclusion then he is not a photographer either as I am sure he used such devilish devices as lenses and photographic film (i wonder if Niépce or Fox Talbot would have scoffed him as much as he scoffs digital technology). the great thing about photography is that it is ever changing, as technology advances so does the work and having worked in both I can say it takes just as much practice to get a professional look in a lightroom as it does a darkroom the only thing different is the workflow
Don't let it piss you off - I have found that those who tear others down really lack confidence.
Tell him that there are two ways to make yourself look good, you can either work hard and be good or you can tear everyone else around you down to by comparison you appear better than you are.
thank you everyone, hope I didn't miss anyone.
365 is great, dar
t still requires skill to take a good picture with correct lighting, accurate focus and shutter speed to capture a great shot. All the lab work is moot if the original is out of focus or too hazy to enhance.
From what I've seen on this website, there are a lot of good photographers out there, and some days you would like to be able to post more than one image because you were proud of what you did the day before. One more trick a pro taught me. If the original is not good, offer the customer the image in Black and white; B/W hides a lot of capture errors. So tell your friend to get over himself.
It is sort of like driving a car. Ask any taxi driver or chauffeur if they would prefer automatic or standard. Ask any audio purist whether the warm sound of analog is really a memory of bygone years when one's ear still heard the full range of sounds.
Digital is not going away any time soon, and the photography hobbyist can concentrate on subject and lighting without blowing the family fortune on wasted chemicals and labour.
Party on!
dar thanks for joining in
dar
A 'real' photographer will know, regardless whether it be digital or film, editing is an important step in the outcome of the final product.
A 'real' photographer will also know if the photo is bad that no editing program can turn it into a good photo.
FWIW; Treat the comments as an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you are doing a similar style of photography then they probably are giving some advice under all the attitude. I do take this kind of advice as a challenge to 'rethink' what I am trying to do. You should, too. However if you are doing a different style of photography then maybe they aren't the ones to be showing your work to. They wouldn't have any real advice for a style they no nothing about. You need advice and critiquing from people who can help you develop you style. Just remember, art is subjective. It takes a lot of work and time to develop your skills. Try different things, experiment, and just keep learning and do your best to look beyond the babble to find what can really help you to grow as a photographer.
I see hundreds of great photos on 365 and elsewhere shot with all sorts of film cameras, with compact digital cameras AND with DSLR's. To me, being judgmental about the type of camera someone else uses is like saying a sculpture isn't art because it's not an oil painting, or a novel isn't literature because it's not a poem. We all use different media. More importantly, we should all respect each others' creative choices.
... and you're not a REAL painter if you use a brush with synthetic fibres
... and you're not a REAL driver if you use a motor vehicle instead of a beast-drawn carriage
... and.....
Pffff... this should be a non-topic.
Ansel Adams
I see others used different quotes, art photography is in the eye of the beholder..technology has a way of changing that in our world daily!
I agree with all who noted how uncivil the guy was to put down Al simply for wanting to participate and get better at the craft. But, I wonder at what a sad person his critic must be. There aren't many Ansel Adams who I suspect would be and remain at the top of the field no matter what the medium would be. How many of the next tier folks are the ones tearing down those of us who they see as having encroached into their field?
That is probably the most absolutely wonderful thing about 365, that our community is almost always kind, caring and supportive WHATEVER the medium. . .
Simple is good. I love spirrow's definition.
Real programmers use a magnetized needle and a steady hand.
(i can't be bothered with labels much)
dar
dar
So anyway after we watched them fail miserably for some time to build a fire we offered loud mouth's girlfriend some coals to get it going. We thought she would be the reasonable one over there. She looked like she wanted to and then said no that he wanted to do it the "old fashioned way."
I assume this means he was going at it with a bow and string or maybe just waiting for lightening to strike nearby.
dar